The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Wolfcastle]

Just now, AyeDubbleYoo said:

We should all be more ethical consumers ideally, in all areas where we spend money. But football fans are particularly badly-placed to withdraw support, especially in our case since the ownership is going to make us massively successful

Heard an interesting take on this recently that some people will ethically source their coffee but paying into an illegal crime an slave ridden drugs trade without the slighest compunction.

[Smal]

6 minutes ago, Solitude20 said:

 

Yet you didn’t raise those concerns when we spent their money on those record transfer fees.
 

Honestly I don’t get it, how can you have no issues with spending their cash to reach where we are today, enjoying their success managing the club so far, looking forward to their future investments, and getting excited by the transformation of the club under their ownership, but if their national team plays at SJP, it suddenly becomes a step too far and only then would their human rights record matter. I don’t get it honestly. 

To me, it’s all the same. You either accept all of it or none if it. I wouldn’t go and happily accept those links that directly benefit the club and draw a line against the links that don’t. 

I have plenty of issues with them spending all this cash on transfers for us. Given how on the previous page in this thread of all threads I've already been called a "boring twat on their high horse" I think people might get a bit irked if I was in every thread on the football forum saying similar, don't you?

 

I'm glad the club has brought so much happiness to our fans after a miserable 15 years prior and that's the one silver lining, but to be clear I'd personally rather they hadn't bought the football club at all. I'm also not passing judgement on those who disagree. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Smal

[Hanshithispantz]

I think the issue is a lot of people confuse being aware of something and thinking "I wish that wasn't the case" with being uncomfortable.

 

If you aren't actually uncomfortable with something you can quite easily pick and choose where to draw the lines, which we see here, or with chinese slave labour etc. Things are a lot more black and white when you're genuinely disturbed by something.

 

I'm not saying this to be a dick as I think people mean well, but the very vast majority of people claiming to be morally contorted by all of this aren't, they're just aware that they 'should' be in some alternate reality where we're not completely ambivalent to things we really shouldn't be.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, Wolfcastle said:

Heard an interesting take on this recently that some people will ethically source their coffee but paying into an illegal crime an slave ridden drugs trade without the slighest compunction.

 

Exactly, we are all hypocrites to some extent. And of course we're victims of capitalism and the market we're forced to live in. I shouldn't buy books from amazon because they don't pay tax, but I want the cheap books. 

 

Meh, I don't know what my conclusion is really, I would just rather the link to Saudi was kept low-key. But obviously that doesn't suit the owners themselves... why would it.   

[Kid Icarus]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

We should all be more ethical consumers ideally, in all areas where we spend money.

 

But football fans are particularly badly-placed to withdraw support, especially in our case since the ownership is going to make us massively successful

 

I do feel slightly weird that I was ready to completely walk away under Ashley, but now I'm 100% back in. Obviously because Ashley was destroying the club itself. But I did prove that I was prepared to walk away over ownership, he just made that particularly easy.  

 

 Can walk away because the owner who doesn't buy players for the football club you support made it easy, MBS on the other hand...

 

Not having a go at you btw, we're all doing it, but it is fucked up like. I remember saying to Wullie around the time of the first bid that it really puts into perspective just how crazy football tribalism is that Mike Ashley's perceived as the baddie of the two between him and MBS. 

 

 

 

[KaKa]

2 minutes ago, Solitude20 said:

 

Yet you didn’t raise those concerns when we spent their money on those record transfer fees.
 

Honestly I don’t get it, how can you have no issues with spending their cash to reach where we are today, enjoying their success managing the club so far, looking forward to their future investments, and getting excited by the transformation of the club under their ownership, but if their national team plays at SJP, it suddenly becomes a step too far and only then would their human rights record matter. I don’t get it honestly. 

To me, it’s all the same. You either accept all of it or none if it. I wouldn’t go and happily accept those links that directly benefit the club and draw a line against the links that don’t. 

 

Pretty much how I see it too.

 

At least everything they are doing is strictly sports related. They are clearly trying to make Newcastle the most popular club for Saudi people to support, because that would have huge financial benefits.

 

Now lets say they started using SJP to host conferences or meetings outside of sports, for their regime or whatever, then of course that would be absolutely uncalled for, and would be a clear line that cannot be crossed.

 

This is strictly a sporting venture of theirs and should be completely separate from the practices that go on in their country, because ultimately this is how things ultimately work in numerous industries.

 

Having said that, if it's something that cannot be looked past, then it's better off for everyone if more efforts are put in to get them to leave.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

 

 Can walk away because the owner who doesn't buy players for the football club you support made it easy, MBS on the other hand...

 

Not having a go at you btw, we're all doing it, but it is fucked up like. I remember saying to Wullie around the time of the first bid that it really puts into perspective just how crazy football tribalism is that Mike Ashley's perceived as the baddie of the two between him and MBS. 

 

 

I do think it's a valid point though. Mike Ashley was actually killing the thing itself, and destroying the point of being a football fan. That's happening immediately to us, it's something that causes us real daily pain. 

 

Of course what KSA do is many times worse than anything Mike Ashley has done in his life, we all know that. But it never came with the same sort of conflict that this situation does. 

 

Also, I think if KSA had taken over from a decent owner we would have had a lot more protests at the time.  

[Wullie]

6 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

 Can walk away because the owner who doesn't buy players for the football club you support made it easy, MBS on the other hand...

 

Not having a go at you btw, we're all doing it, but it is fucked up like. I remember saying to Wullie around the time of the first bid that it really puts into perspective just how crazy football tribalism is that Mike Ashley's perceived as the baddie of the two between him and MBS. 

 

One of the funniest lines you see aimed unironically at journalists etc is along the lines of "You claim you care about suffering Yemeni children yet when we were the ones suffering under Ashley you said nothing!"

[KaKa]

6 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

The way I can sleep at night is basically, I don't choose where the money comes from, I wish it came from somewhere better.

 

Thinking of PIF as a financial investment fund who invests the money on Saudi Arabia provides a bit of separation, then the likes of Staveley provide even more. 

 

Also, the PL is full of dodgy money, so why shouldn't we have some. 

 

Also, fans are locked in and their club is something that can never belong to anyone but them.

 

It's not exactly a coherent position and I know maybe I should step away. But basically I can't, so I would rather the link to KSA was as remote as possible. 

 

 

 

 

And this is the cruel irony of this whole thing. Everyone's hands are dirty in this business.

 

Out of interest can anyone explain to me why Man City's Qatar ownership don't get anywhere near as much grief over these issues?!

 

 

[Bada Bing]

I just see it as a Faustian bargain. They give us a good team and rebuild our infrastructure and stature. In return the club has to do PR / marketing for KSA. Only time will tell whether it was ultimately worth it. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, KaKa said:

 

And this is the cruel irony of this whole thing. Everyone's hands are dirty in this business.

 

Out of interest can anyone explain to me why Man City's Qatar ownership don't get anywhere near as much grief over these issues?!

 

 

 

From my uneducated view, Qatar aren't as evil and don't have quite as many high-profile crimes. Also they've been around longer. 

 

I don't think media will be able to keep this up for decades, eventually it won't be a story anymore. 

[Wullie]

Qatar having nothing whatsoever to do with Man City is also a crucial factor.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1 minute ago, Bada Bing said:

I just see it as a Faustian bargain. They give us a good team and rebuild our infrastructure and stature. In return the club has to do PR / marketing for KSA. Only time will tell whether it was ultimately worth it. 

 

That doesn't really answer the question of whether any amount of football success would be worth doing that. 

 

I don't think there's any doubt the club will benefit immensely. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, Wullie said:

Qatar having nothing whatsoever to do with Man City is also a crucial factor.

 

Aye, Abu Dhabi.

[KaKa]

Yeah, my mistake.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

And Wullie's for being such a sarcasm ponce. 

[Kid Icarus]

12 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

I do think it's a valid point though. Mike Ashley was actually killing the thing itself, and destroying the point of being a football fan. That's happening immediately to us, it's something that causes us real daily pain. 

 

Of course what KSA do is many times worse than anything Mike Ashley has done in his life, we all know that. But it never came with the same sort of conflict that this situation does. 

 

Also, I think if KSA had taken over from a decent owner we would have had a lot more protests at the time.  

 

Howeh  I know what you mean, we all 'suffered' the Ashley years, but that's probably the most first world problem thing I've ever read like. I can just about get my head around just how powerful material interests are and all of these mad cognitive biases that are going on, but I think once you have that dichotomy of Ashley and MBS in front of you and not just in the abstract, it does makes our problem with Ashley look and feel unbelievably trivial in hindsight. 

 

Obv not saying you're comparing the two either btw, just saying that for me at least it's planted the 'it's only football' seed in my mind more than anything. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I would say Ashley had a significant part in ruining a large part of the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. 

 

Of course if you compare the two people there's no contest in the world outside of football. 

 

But as a football fan, having your club taken away by a parasite and systematically destroyed is about the worst thing that can happen. We're very lucky we didn't end up in league one. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Bada Bing]

3 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

That doesn't really answer the question of whether any amount of football success would be worth doing that. 

 

I don't think there's any doubt the club will benefit immensely. 

 

What I'm getting at here, and this is just my view, is that the gradual 'saudification' of the club makes it increasingly hard to relate to (pre-Ashley). I'm not saying that will happen, but it is a concern for me, however irrational it is. But I agree, the club on any objective measure will benefit enormously.

[ohmelads]

1 hour ago, Wullie said:

Qatar having nothing whatsoever to do with Man City is also a crucial factor.

 

Sheikh Mansour is only senior member of Abu Dhabi’s ruling family and deputy prime minister of the UAE.

 

Emitates is also state-owned.

 

It's still state interference in football (a state with serious human rights issues) without any of the noise that comes with being a club challenging the established order.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by ohmelads

[The Prophet]

The key difference with Mike Ashley is that his ownership of the club had a negative impact. Barely anyone would have given a fuck about Sports Direct and it's dodgy practices had he steered us in a positive direction.

 

It's been done to death, but every fan will have their own moral stance on how they feel about PIF and what, if anything they want to do about that, there isn't really a right or a wrong answer.

 

For me personally I'm a Newcastle fan, not a KSA fan and I don't think hosting them in our stadium is great optics.

[TheInfiniteOdyssey]

Hope this happens. Would be absolutely brilliant for me and my in-laws if they were playing Mexico. 

[Smal]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Howeh  I know what you mean, we all 'suffered' the Ashley years, but that's probably the most first world problem thing I've ever read like. I can just about get my head around just how powerful material interests are and all of these mad cognitive biases that are going on, but I think once you have that dichotomy of Ashley and MBS in front of you and not just in the abstract, it does make our problem with Ashley feel trivial in hindsight. 

 

I can see what Ian means, I think, in that the problems that Ashley brought to the club were very different to an individual fan on an emotional and personal basis to the ones that KSA have brought. Yes this is a first world problem but if it's affecting your daily life, which is understandable if you're a lifelong NUFC fan with that kind of connection, then it's still a fairly big problem on that personal and emotional level. 

 

There are levels and the KSA issues are obviously worse on a macro and societal level, but I can see how it's less of a daily problem to someone in Newcastle. 

[Scoot]

I'm going to be brutally honest here. I didn't pay any attention to middle Eastern human rights before we were taken over by PIF and I haven't since they took over us. I probably won't in the future either. I know it sounds incredibly selfish but I'm really not that arsed about it as I have no connection to it. 

 

I'm purely in it for the football and if PIF want to invest in my club and make us great, that's fine with me. If Saudi Arabia are going to play and international match at St James' Park which could benefit the club in the long run, that's fine with me too.

 

I'm not going to go all mackem here and pretend I know anything about what happens in the middle east. 

 

That's my stance on the whole thing. If that makes me bad, then I apologise!

[rebelrouser]

Iran and the Shiite (minority) rebels attacked a Saudi ally (the Sunni majority) and the Saudis fought back.  Seems like a much more defendable position than the US/UK invasion of Iraq, but I'm not an expert on the issue.