The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Thomson Mouse]

Apologies @ManDoon and whoever else, I was wasted last night. I may or may not have had a shut up text from my neighbour around the same time as those posts for singing this very loud

 

 

[Billy Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, Yorkie said:

Not calling anyone out and I know it comes with the territory in a thread like this, but let's do what we can to keep it as relevant to the context of NUFC as possible. It's a complicated but important thread/discussion so it's vital that we try and keep it on track and not get bombarded in the nitty gritty and political differences. 

 

Hope this doesn't come across as officious, just being wary.

People are trying to rationalise it, which is fine and expected. But there is nothing to rationalise. No equivalence. It is beyond good and evil. It is what it is. When the time comes we can decide to voice opposition. Dissecting it into ideologies, cod forum world history, semantics and pouring over every detail from a moralist lens ends in one place only: we shouldn’t take their money. I fully accept that this is wrong on many levels, I’m just saying, I’m going to get my hands dirty but avoid defending Saudi Arabia. 

[Slim]

Man City owner hosting a squid games....where is the fury!

 

https://www.koreaboo.com/news/real-life-squid-game-held-uae/

[The Bonk]

29 minutes ago, B-more Mag said:

 

Supporting the club doesn't equal supporting the KSA. It's perfectly coherent to love the club and continue to support it while thoroughly condemning the harms perpetrated by the KSA. 

 

This, exactly this. Top flight football hasn't been about the match going public for well over a decade and you could argue most owners couldn't care less what fans think going back much longer than that.

 

I was recruited 2 years ago by project NEOM (https://www.neom.com/en-us) with an opportunity to double my salary, unlimited travel budget, free accommodation, you name it. There was no way I'd even consider taking this role for numerous reasons including my moral compass not allowing it.  I obviously had control over this situation and could control the outcome. Situationally, we fans have little control over who is going to purchase our club and how it's run (Case in point; Ashley, Mike).

We can only hope the consortium remove themselves, as promised, from KSA and how the ruling class there conduct themselves. 

[BlueStar]

44 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Overall a good piece but that “people in glass house/ There is a racist/colonial view of human rights in the west” is such unmitigated cope and nonsense. It’s not racist to call out human rights abuses. He shouldn’t have included that nonsense.

I agree but it seemed like it was just presenting it as something someone else had said rather than agreeing with it. I think 

[loki679]

32 minutes ago, Wullie said:

I read somewhere that dismembering a critical journalist with a bonesaw is an Arabian folk tradition.  

 

Is it the dismembering that's an issue?  Cos on a practical level you ain't getting a body out of an embassy unnoticed unless you chop it up.

[Kid Icarus]

26 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

The current societies we live in our incomparable. All I said was it’s nonsense to call the west’s view of human rights as “colonial and racist”.  China frequently steps on human rights, is it  “racist” to point that out now? I swear we are spoiled here by how good we have it.  

No of course it's not. Surely the point isn't that pointing it out is colonial and racist, but that not seeing it as the same thing when the west does it, or trying to claim that other states are worse is? I mean you're still saying the west and SA are incomparable but for some reason you're only really looking at the disparity between societies and not factoring in actions abroad.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by kisearch

[Abacus]

Whilst I'm not bothered about the ethical stuff, since I'm both not responsible for it nor about to justify it to anyone either, it's actually the sporting angle that does bother me.

 

For a long time, it's been obvious that you can't win anything without an unfair financial advantage.

 

Leicester was the obvious, brilliant exception. But what's the point of trying to do things properly like them, when in a few years, it's quite possible we'll have skewed things even further?

 

Obviously, we didn't cause those problems in the first place and I'd rather be on the winning side given those problems already exist. 

 

But it really wouldn't bother me if the whole pyramid collapsed, as long as it collapsed for everyone.

[Kid Icarus]

13 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

They supported us on a lot of those endeavors btw. So that actually isn’t even as cut and dry as you’re making it out . You could even argue that they green lit suicide bombings with the exportation of Wahhabism, so are we counting that too?  But that withstanding, we shouldn’t be precluded from judgment of Saudi Arabia because of our foreign policies?
 

No. We are talking about human rights and the second we execute or persecute a homosexual purely for being gay in this country I will agree. The fact is we do not do that. We operate a largely free society (obvs it has issues no one is denying that). The “it’s colonial:racist” is such a dope and deflection, a Labour MP should be ashamed of putting that in his article. There are plenty of sticks to beat the west with, calling out human rights issues in other countries is certainly not one of them. There is no utopian country, it’s unfortunate but that’s how it is but a basic standard of human rights should be a given. 

We did do that for years. No idea why you're continuing to ignore actions abroad but I don't think we're going to get anywhere near to agreeing, so best just leave it there 

[Dinho lad]

10 hours ago, BlueStar said:

 

 

Only quickly skimmed the article, but I do agree with the basic notion... all this stuff about 'suffering', 'If this wasn't Newcastle...', etc, is a bit embarrassing.

 

Ah well. 

[cubaricho]

5 hours ago, The Bonk said:

I was recruited 2 years ago by project NEOM (https://www.neom.com/en-us) with an opportunity to double my salary, unlimited travel budget, free accommodation, you name it.

 

*goes straight to careers page*

[cubaricho]

Within a month people will stop continually talking about Saudi ownership because they'll get bored and because Amanda, Mehrdad, and the new CEO, DoF, and Manager will be the faces of this club and doing all the talking.

[The Bonk]

1 hour ago, cubaricho said:

 

*goes straight to careers page*

 Godspeed, sir!

[High Five o]

I personally find it conflicting, but have come to peace with it and accept football is fucked. Ashley is gone and I have some hope again.

 

What can change my feeling with this is if there are loads of Saudi flags, people with MBS masks at our matches.

 

Celebrate and support NUFC, not the Saudis.

 

I urge every single Newcastle fan to think twice and please do not make us look like complete fucking morons.

Thanks.

[Fantail Breeze]

8 hours ago, Heron said:

I agree.

 

However, what I would argue is that at a point in history, we also would have had human rights abuses on a list as long as our arms. We just live in a different world now, with increased surveillence and spotlights on such crime. Perhaps, this is a movement by the Saudis into the modern world. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I suppose everyone needs the chance of redwmption, as a nation (not so much as individuals). 

 

This is similar to where I sit on this, rightly or wrongly. It’s probably a strange take and I don’t expect everyone to agree.

 

What is acceptable and what isn’t acceptable is driven by society.

 

Thankfully, our society has moved on from periods where we kept minorities as slaves and subjected them to degrading and disgusting treatment.

 

We also used the death penalty. People have been burnt alive in history because people believed they were a witch, ffs.

 

Has our society completely moved on? America has subjected some people to horrific torture in Guantanamo (some with very little credible evidence to hold them in the first place). America still uses the death penalty in some states.

 

KSA is a long, long way behind us. They need to modernise and their human rights is shocking. But let’s not re-write history.

 

Will shouting, sanctions or conflict with them change anything? No.

 

Will I stand in the street waving a KSA flag? Absolutely not.

 

I don’t fully understand why NUFC fans are expected to take the moral high ground when KSA money is pumped into thousands of Governments, organisations and sports around the world.

[Hhtoon]

4 hours ago, cubaricho said:

Within a month people will stop continually talking about Saudi ownership because they'll get bored and because Amanda, Mehrdad, and the new CEO, DoF, and Manager will be the faces of this club and doing all the talking.

 

Yup, and they'll realise that NUFC is being run like any other club (albeit filthy rich) and aren't suddenly going to start banning women, alcohol, LGBTQ people from attending. 

[Tiotes Witch Doctor]

Good article in the athletic from Jack pitt-brooke about all this.

[Si]

One thing that's emerged from this is that a lot of people don't understand bthe nuance between owning shares in a company and owning it lock stock and barrel.

[TRon]

16 hours ago, cubaricho said:

Within a month people will stop continually talking about Saudi ownership because they'll get bored and because Amanda, Mehrdad, and the new CEO, DoF, and Manager will be the faces of this club and doing all the talking.

 

Yep. I imagine there was probably similar concerns raised about the City Sheikhs during their takeover, I don't suppose there are gay rights in Abu Dhabi, and the human rights stuff over there will leave a lot to be desired. Ok it might be relatively better than in SA, but from a moral POV it's the same thing. How much do we hear about it 13 years later? 

 

It's the world we live in. Not very nice, but unless you want to stop watching football, we are all part of it. Only difference is we were participating as helpless losers previously, now we get to sit back at the top again, albeit in circumstances which might not sit well with some. 

[Collage]

4 hours ago, Tiotes Witch Doctor said:

Good article in the athletic from Jack pitt-brooke about all this.

 

[mighty__mag]

This is perfect for this topic.

Enjoy the replies, I gave up because there's contradiction and hypocrisy everywhere. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by mighty__mag

[InspectorCoarse]

On 11/10/2021 at 16:07, Collage said:

 

Spurs fan , aye , reet 

[Tiotes Witch Doctor]

That David Squires strip has finished me off, I was just coming to terms with it and looking to the future.

 

Going to be a tricky one for my tiny little left leaning brain this one.

[mighty__mag]

22 minutes ago, Tiotes Witch Doctor said:

That David Squires strip has finished me off, I was just coming to terms with it and looking to the future.

 

Going to be a tricky one for my tiny little left leaning brain this one.

 

I'm a lefty pal, but I'm not allowing hypocrisy/contradiction to rule this one, because it's everywhere. 

 

As if nobody's watching the world cup, as if any of these clubs are stopping their players going to represent. 

 

As if lots of these other clubs fans earning good salaries don't vote Tory etc,etc, bla bla.

 

It's a vicious circle. 

 

City fan told me once you start winning silverware, it pales into insignificance. 

 

Depends how/if your principles/integrity rule your every measure. 

 

I mean for instance food, would you research everything you ate down to where it came from, how it was produced, did someone pic rice in horrendous conditions for 18hrs a day, without a break in blistering heat. One shit example, but I'm literally talking everything you consume? Materials? Phones?

 

Who's got an iPhone?

(Those working conditions.)

 

We're just going to have to take it on the chin. 

 

All these other fans can fuck off, none of them are the perfect beings they portray. 

 

There's the man on the street, and there's the fraud online.

 

??

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by mighty__mag

[Rompe]

On 11/10/2021 at 13:28, TRon said:

 

Yep. I imagine there was probably similar concerns raised about the City Sheikhs during their takeover, I don't suppose there are gay rights in Abu Dhabi, and the human rights stuff over there will leave a lot to be desired. Ok it might be relatively better than in SA, but from a moral POV it's the same thing. How much do we hear about it 13 years later? 

 

It's the world we live in. Not very nice, but unless you want to stop watching football, we are all part of it. Only difference is we were participating as helpless losers previously, now we get to sit back at the top again, albeit in circumstances which might not sit well with some. 

 

Some people actually still care about Manchester City owners and use pretty much every possible situation to complain about them.