The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[TheBrownBottle]

Sitting on massive reserves of oil and gas has meant that society in KSA has had no need to evolve.  It’s still an atavistic form of govt which retards progress, built upon a vicious brand of conservative religious values and completely at odds with what most would consider reasonable.  It is for good reason that every time some fucker commits a religiously-inspired atrocity in the name of Islam, said fucker will have been ultimately funded or influenced by the Wahhabist Salafist lunatic strain of the religion which KSA has birthed and has poured money into spreading.

 

Note that the elites in KSA don’t feel any compunction to follow the rules that they set.  They’ve been living it large for years, with their billion-dollar yachts with gold-plated bogs.  A mate of mine who worked in KSA - and drank in the embassies over there - noted that the elites didn’t exactly follow the laws that the hoi polloi had to suffer, under the literal threat of the lash for imbibing a drop of alcohol. 

 

Any notion that there will be a cultural cross-pollination via NUFC is laughable.  The entire purpose of ME despots buying sports clubs is the soft power that they offer.  It’s got nothing to do with profits, and nothing to do with ‘sportswashing’.

 

The only thing that will free the people of KSA will be the people of KSA overthrowing a vicious dictatorship.

 

No-one should feel any guilt whatsoever for enjoying watching their football club - but anyone who wants to raise concerns re KSA has my support.  

[WilliamPS]

I’ve sympathy for (and share) the view that the club and PIF are separate and people can hold that distinction so support one and not the other.

 

Zero sympathy with the nonsense that because “it’s Saudi culture” the Saudis can’t be criticised for their abysmal human rights approach. Not sure the people being bombed / executed see it as their culture. The regime oppresses the citizens to stay in power - that’s how dictatorships work. 

[TRon]

1 hour ago, Yorkie said:

 

 For instance he was suggesting Wor Flags should do an anti-Saudi demonstration. I mean, howeh. 

 

WTF?

 

Did it not dwell on him that the people behind Wor Flags are massive Newcastle fans and probably love how things have turned out?

 

 

[Ronaldo]

1 hour ago, Groundhog63 said:

Because he's thick as whale spunk 

 

Or because I can read. 

 

“I think the vast majority of fans are against what the owners are doing."

 

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-fans-protest-saudi-arabia-execution-young-people-chelsea-1940661

 

Honestly, these fucking clowns are an embarrassment. Our owners have transformed the club in the past year and hopefully are fully aware of how appreciative the fanbase is. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1 hour ago, St. Maximin said:

Ultimately I support Newcastle and feel no allegiance to the Saudi state. While there will always be some discomfort at this takeover, a proportionate reaction is needed. We are 80% owned by the investment fund of the government, which invests in businesses all over the world and often far bigger amounts. The people we are aware are mostly involved in the club seem like decent and likeable people, who are committed to the club's development and that includes significant developments to the women's team, while also wanting to engage with the fans and benefit the region. This may include PIF employees, who are ultimately human beings also and do not necessarily share their moral compasses of the most powerful in the country (as with governments across the world). We have and will no doubt continue to benefit from the PIF's money, but it's still a club ran by great people with positive ideas for the club and fans rather than us simply becoming a soulless business growing due to 'blood money' (not sure how people come to that conclusion anyway). As for the Saudi connection, we're hardly advertising their values, human rights etc. If anything it's more likely to make people visit the country and have a positive experience in the same way people do to other gulf states with bad reputations for human rights. It's also pretty subtle relative to how it could be - bit different to having Sports Direct everywhere you look in the stadium.

 

This is basically my feeling. I would rather the money came from somewhere 100% wholesome, but I don't have control of that. 

 

I also feel that the moral strength expected of footballers and football fans is ridiculous when the people in positions of power are the ones who have allowed/created these situations. Ask people in the Premier League why they allowed money from every dodgy regime in the world to come into the game. Ask the Prime Minister when we are going to stop supplying weapons to be used in Yemen. Any number of questions that are more pertinent than asking a football fan to stop supporting their club. 

 

As always though, it doesn't mean we should support the regime of KSA or make excuses for them. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Wallsendmag]

Ultimately we have to take the takeover at face value. PIF had to legally prove separation from the State before the Premier League could rubber stamp the takeover.

 

I still don't see what the fuss is about.

[Yorkie]

8 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

 

Or because I can read. 

 

“I think the vast majority of fans are against what the owners are doing."

 

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-fans-protest-saudi-arabia-execution-young-people-chelsea-1940661

 

Honestly, these fucking clowns are an embarrassment. Our owners have transformed the club in the past year and hopefully are fully aware of how appreciative the fanbase is. 

 

It's a bit vague. He could be (and probably is, imo) referring to what they are doing in terms of human rights abuses etc. I don't think he means the vast majority of fans are against long overdue investment and respect towards the football club. 

 

I don't feel strong enough about it to stand and protest with them, which is why I didn't, and didn't even particularly look into it, but what I think is totally wrong is calling them embarrassing or not Newcastle fans. 

[The Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

Ultimately we have to take the takeover at face value. PIF had to legally prove separation from the State before the Premier League could rubber stamp the takeover.

 

I still don't see what the fuss is about.

 

Was the standard to a legal requirement? Or just to satisfy the PL Owners and Directors test?

[geordiesteve710]

2 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

Was the standard to a legal requirement? Or just to satisfy the PL Owners and Directors test?

 

It all got a bit murky in the end- if you read the PLs statement on the takeover, it I'd carefully and painfully worded so as to avoid any admission of separation being proven.

 

They've received "assurances" that the state won't control the club and decided to come to an agreement to allow the sale.

 

Imo they got the carrot of the Saudis compensating Bein for piracy and the stick of the CAT hearing backing them into a corner and made the best decision for themselves.

[Tiresias]

yes because if someone in football administration says something is totally above board it is definitely totally above board. The premier league would never let anything happen just because it makes them richer, never!

 

Just go google who the chairman of PIF is. That's all you need to do to see through that particular complicated well disguised chirade. 

[Kid Icarus]

11 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

It's a bit vague. He could be (and probably is, imo) referring to what they are doing in terms of human rights abuses etc. I don't think he means the vast majority of fans are against long overdue investment and respect towards the football club. 

 

I don't feel strong enough about it to stand and protest with them, which is why I didn't, and didn't even particularly look into it, but what I think is totally wrong is calling them embarrassing or not Newcastle fans. 

 

Literally what he was referring to.  It turns out solely being able to read isn't owt to show off about.

[The Prophet]

Ultimately, every NUFC fan will have their own subjective take on our majority owners, guided by their own morals and principles. There's a discussion to be had, but there isn't particularly a right or wrong answer.

 

Telling other fans to fuck off and questioning their loyalty is at best childish. 

 

The only thing that bothers me is when fans come out to bat for KSA (vindicating the blockade and bombing of Yemen, abusing Khashoggi's Mrs, etc). It suggests that sportswashing is alive and well.

[Wallsendmag]

17 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

yes because if someone in football administration says something is totally above board it is definitely totally above board. The premier league would never let anything happen just because it makes them richer, never!

 

Just go google who the chairman of PIF is. That's all you need to do to see through that particular complicated well disguised chirade. 

 

The Premier League literally did everything in their power to stop it!

[St. Maximin]

15 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Ultimately, every NUFC fan will have their own subjective take on our majority owners, guided by their own morals and principles. There's a discussion to be had, but there isn't particularly a right or wrong answer.

 

Telling other fans to fuck off and questioning their loyalty is at best childish. 

 

The only thing that bothers me is when fans come out to bat for KSA (vindicating the blockade and bombing of Yemen, abusing Khashoggi's Mrs, etc). It suggests that sportswashing is alive and well.

I agree on the subjectivity and ultimately I’m happy for people to care more or less than I do. 
 

Don’t really agree on the sportswashing though. At least I think the sportswashing people are concerned about is on a much bigger scale. These are a small minority of our fanbase, let alone the UK as a whole and thus their impact is minimal. They are morons and you find those in every fan base. This has just given them a voice. I try not to worry too much about them. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by St. Maximin

[Tiresias]

5 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

 

The Premier League literally did everything in their power to stop it!

 

The premier league wouldn't let it pass because of the damage the piracy issue was causing to the value of the brand and their ability to sell it in the middle east. The premier league only cares about money, once that was cleared they waved it through. My objection is not now and never will be that the premier league didn't apply their own rules correctly, I think it is fundamentally wrong for football clubs to be owned by nation states to be soft power political footballs to kick around. It's just wrong the same way lots of thing are wrong that just are and we can't always really avoid them all the time like pornography and birmingham.

[Jaqen]

The idea that thier Sportswashing works because a handful of knackers on twitter posted a few daft tweets never makes much sense to me. 

 

They could have achieved the same thing without spending hundreds of millions on a football club and investing a hell of a lot more over the coming years. 

 

The protesters would probably be better off served taking action down parliament asking why we are desperate to do business with the Saudis and supplying them weapons.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

51 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

Ultimately we have to take the takeover at face value. PIF had to legally prove separation from the State before the Premier League could rubber stamp the takeover.

 

I still don't see what the fuss is about.

 

Well we don't, we all know PIF is intimately connected to the Saudi state.

[Abacus]

4 hours ago, Yorkie said:

Said it in the other thread but I think TL came across like an idiot tbh. "I challenge" these fans. Eh? Why challenge them at all? Investigate and find out what the craic is sure, but there's absolutely no need to paint them in a negative way. 

 

I agree and think the Tyneside Life guy came across badly in this.

 

I especially liked his "gotcha" where he told the guy that the Saudis hadn't signed up to the Human Rights Convention. Err that's right, agreed the guy suspiciously, clearly wary that he was being lured into some kind of clever trap.

 

Before finding out it was nothing of the sort and it was the questioner who had just made a prat of himself instead. You highlighted that earlier, but at that point my own cringe factor was so high that I had to switch it off.

NB I didn't agree with the protests themselves, even if I agree with many of the issues they protest about. Regardless, I thought he was reasonable and afterwards I thought fair enough to him, he's made his case.

 

He was always entitled to do that of course, but whilst you can always say what you want, he at least earned the right to be listened to by how he went about it.

[Yorkie]

6 minutes ago, Abacus said:

I especially liked his "gotcha" where he told the guy that the Saudis hadn't signed up to the Human Rights Convention. Err that's right, agreed the guy suspiciously, clearly wary that he was being lured into some kind of clever trap.

 

Before finding out it was nothing of the sort and it was the questioner who had just made a prat of himself instead. You highlighted that earlier, but at that point my own cringe factor was so high that I had to switch it off.

 

Fwiw I challenged TL about this very statement in the YouTube comments (a corner of the web I almost never venture to, but was so energised I couldn't help myself!) and he just said that I was twisting his words and took them out of context. I mean I clearly wasn't - I quoted him verbatim - so, yeah, I guess that was that. I was more bothered about the presentation of these Newcastle fans than I was the subject behind their protest anyway. 

 

It all boils down to what I was saying earlier really. People offending the owners means people offending NUFC which means people offending me. Result: let's challenge these 'fans' and stoke toxicity on social media!

 

(In fairness to Eddie he did correct the sharp lads in the comments saying the protesters were Mackems/not Newcastle fans).

[Barnes23]

1 hour ago, Yorkie said:

 

It's a bit vague. He could be (and probably is, imo) referring to what they are doing in terms of human rights abuses etc. I don't think he means the vast majority of fans are against long overdue investment and respect towards the football club. 

 

I don't feel strong enough about it to stand and protest with them, which is why I didn't, and didn't even particularly look into it, but what I think is totally wrong is calling them embarrassing or not Newcastle fans. 

 Depends on if you feel it's reasonable to level claims of human rights abuses at the door of our owners specifically rather than the Saudi state itself. The framing of that statement on his part is deliberately provocative and misleading in that respect, I would say. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

12 minutes ago, Barnes23 said:

 Depends on if you feel it's reasonable to level claims of human rights abuses at the door of our owners specifically rather than the Saudi state itself. The framing of that statement on his part is deliberately provocative and misleading in that respect, I would say. 

They are basically the same people, the 80% that comes from PIF anyway. 

[ponsaelius]

3 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Sitting on massive reserves of oil and gas has meant that society in KSA has had no need to evolve.  It’s still an atavistic form of govt which retards progress, built upon a vicious brand of conservative religious values and completely at odds with what most would consider reasonable.  It is for good reason that every time some fucker commits a religiously-inspired atrocity in the name of Islam, said fucker will have been ultimately funded or influenced by the Wahhabist Salafist lunatic strain of the religion which KSA has birthed and has poured money into spreading.

 

Note that the elites in KSA don’t feel any compunction to follow the rules that they set.  They’ve been living it large for years, with their billion-dollar yachts with gold-plated bogs.  A mate of mine who worked in KSA - and drank in the embassies over there - noted that the elites didn’t exactly follow the laws that the hoi polloi had to suffer, under the literal threat of the lash for imbibing a drop of alcohol. 

 

Any notion that there will be a cultural cross-pollination via NUFC is laughable.  The entire purpose of ME despots buying sports clubs is the soft power that they offer.  It’s got nothing to do with profits, and nothing to do with ‘sportswashing’.

 

The only thing that will free the people of KSA will be the people of KSA overthrowing a vicious dictatorship.

 

No-one should feel any guilt whatsoever for enjoying watching their football club - but anyone who wants to raise concerns re KSA has my support.  

 

Good post. Wahhabism is the most destructive of ideologies and it is birthed and spread by the Saudi state. Enforcing it both in terms of ideology and laws is key to allowing the dictatorship to retain control over the populace. PIF is undisputably the direct investment arm of the state - with the dual purpose of diversifying their economy away from oil and gaining soft power globally. The idea that some kind of holistic cross-pollination of ideas through PIF's investment in global capitalism will lead to advances in KSA society is fanciful in the extreme. It is by design far more likely to tighten the regime's grip on power and further entrench the status quo.

 

It is in most NUFC fans interests to turn a blind eye to the above because lets honest the last thing any of us want to do is 'scare' away such investment in something we love. My way of rationalising it is a combination of fully appreciating the involvement of those owners directly involved in running the club (Staveley, RB, even PIF employees) - and convincing myself there is actually little we can do as individuals to stop the cold hand of investment in a global market (if it wasn't us - there's no doubt it would be somebody else).

[Tsunami]

From memory the PL backed themselves into a corner. They’d been sharing info, the Big 6 had been sticking their oar in and the CAT outcome paved the way for a January reveal that the PL didn’t want to happen. 
 

The actual approval came very quickly in the.

 

Fans of other clubs forget that the govt petition wasn’t about getting approval, it was about transparency and steadfast refusal of the PL to make a decision.

 

If the PL had gone about preventing the takeover in a transparent way and within their own rules then it wouldn’t have gone through.

 

The takeover had all but been approved months earlier until all and sundry got involved.

 

I’m no fan of RSA but the PL fucked up and everyone tried to do us over.

[Barnes23]

15 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

They are basically the same people, the 80% that comes from PIF anyway. 

I don't think it's such a straightforward question in practice, even putting to the side the fact that separation between the two was scrutinised at length as part of the takeover process. Both the distance between PIF and the Saudi state (lesser) and the distance between NUFC and the Saudi state (greater) are significantly underestimated by those looking to protest imo, it's a kind of category error. Like Ronaldo said, the appropriate channels are political ones. 

[St. Maximin]

For the record I think a lot of the Saudi apologists among our fanbase (a very small minority) are smart enough to realise the potentially difficult moral position of supporting a team owned by KSA, so are almost justifying it to themselves by pointing out things like death sentences being carried out against terrorists etc.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by St. Maximin