KaKa Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 yeah i understand what both of you are saying but it won't work instead of ASM or Almiron carrying the ball 40 yards to find themselves & Joelinton isolated from the entire team you're hoping that a 40 yard hoof to Giroud would somehow lead to those three somehow not being isolated from the team...we'll still have the same setup and static CMs the answer is not hoofball, the best we've looked all season is when ASM takes 2-3 players out creating space for others with his runs from deep, if you cut that avenue out we'll be even easier to defend against imo I don't think anyone is saying we should hoof the ball. We are hoofing it regardless, and so might as well have someone that can at least occasionally get a hold of it. I don't understand why you think that having a target man will prevent ASM from running from deep like he was doing with both Joelinton and Carroll playing the target man role pretty poorly anyway. How does a better target man then prevent him from doing this? Just not understanding what you mean? And what kind of player you then think we'll need to sort things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate End Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 yeah i understand what both of you are saying but it won't work instead of ASM or Almiron carrying the ball 40 yards to find themselves & Joelinton isolated from the entire team you're hoping that a 40 yard hoof to Giroud would somehow lead to those three somehow not being isolated from the team...we'll still have the same setup and static CMs the answer is not hoofball, the best we've looked all season is when ASM takes 2-3 players out creating space for others with his runs from deep, if you cut that avenue out we'll be even easier to defend against imo Do you remember the second half of last season? That's how it 'should' work. Direct football towards strong centre forward with two supporting players. The centre of midfield aren't there to score goals in this approach. Obviously we don't have Rafa, Rondon or Perez, but the theory is proved in that that's exactly how we played then, and exactly how we're attempting (poorly) to play now. ASM has been our shining light by default. I wouldn't choose to base my whole approach around him when the team is not capable of playing through him successfully. That's borne out in the fact that his number of goals, assists and chances created are low. If we had a centre forward who worked in this approach I'd imagine ASM and Alan Miron will be far more influential Agree. A natural target man is a must something Rafa would pinpoint because he has a football brain. Batshuayi would be terrible for the current system and he’d infuriate the fans with his awful hold up play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 yeah i understand what both of you are saying but it won't work instead of ASM or Almiron carrying the ball 40 yards to find themselves & Joelinton isolated from the entire team you're hoping that a 40 yard hoof to Giroud would somehow lead to those three somehow not being isolated from the team...we'll still have the same setup and static CMs the answer is not hoofball, the best we've looked all season is when ASM takes 2-3 players out creating space for others with his runs from deep, if you cut that avenue out we'll be even easier to defend against imo Do you remember the second half of last season? That's how it 'should' work. Direct football towards strong centre forward with two supporting players. The centre of midfield aren't there to score goals in this approach. Obviously we don't have Rafa, Rondon or Perez, but the theory is proved in that that's exactly how we played then, and exactly how we're attempting (poorly) to play now. ASM has been our shining light by default. I wouldn't choose to base my whole approach around him when the team is not capable of playing through him successfully. That's borne out in the fact that his number of goals, assists and chances created are low. If we had a centre forward who worked in this approach I'd imagine ASM and Alan Miron will be far more influential yeah i remember it, but not in the same way as you, i remember the season in 2 distinct parts 1 - up to when Ki came in we played long balls (largely via Shelvey of course) to Rondon and he was isolated from the rest of the team, and we really struggled obvs 2 - Ki came in and we started to play through the middle, the team moved moved more gradually up the pitch together and we got better support in and around Rondon which improved his game and also saw Perez hit form as well...it wasn't a matter of just the long balls started working or Rondon hit form, it was a complete change in the way we played and Longstaff came in and improved what Ki had started plus Almiron helped massively giving us another outlet a big man is very unlikely to help us unless we see a similar change in the system, imo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 i'm not saying don't get another target man, we clearly will cause we've got PFM steve, i'm saying getting one is unlikely to improve things because the system is fucked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 i'm not saying don't get another target man, we clearly will cause we've got PFM steve, i'm saying getting one is unlikely to improve things because the system is fucked Ah, right. I see what your saying about Ki and the removal of Shelvey. Yeah, that's a valid point. I'm coming more from the viewpoint that the manager is not even considering the way we play out and the players to improve that at all, because he is completely oblivious to it And so knowing that, the only chance we have is to have a really powerful presence up top. Not because this is going to produce better football per se, but because it will allow for what is already terrible football to likely create more chances albeit not a whole lot more. We are going to be a percentage football team essentially. In the mould of your Boltons, Stokes and Burnleys in recent times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 hey you may be right man, it's just not the move i'd make but i understand the logic behind the idea Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Yeah ... to be honest it wasn't really a solution. I don't even want Bruce to have any success at this point. I just think if we are going to insist on these crummy managers then just give them the players geared to their nonsense football. I'm just sick of us getting young talents that are onto a hiding to nothing, and then we end up ruining any chances of them being anything while having to listen to how shite they are. It just keeps on happening. Another that just came to mind was Luuk De Jong under Pardew. Wasn't it the same kind of talk? How he can't kick a football and can't finish His brother under Pardew as well and it was the same kind of talk ... I mean my goodness. Just sick of it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 see the rondon role was much more successful 2nd half of last season as we got players in about him, perez was especially good in that role due to his workrate off the ball and instinct to get in and around stuff in the box etc. and longstaff got forward very well playing in a more advanced team who is going to replicate that for us, ASM? highly doubtful imo, i think he's best playing in front of people almiron will be punted back to the right when ASM is fit again and will be a total waste of a shirt again so it likely won't be him either longstaff looks broken shortstaff has the potential to support from CM but unlikely to get enough game time shelvey has almost certainly peaked for the season, and anyways if we're launching it to a big man he'll be doing it so won't be in support, whereas 2nd half last season that was all done by in form and confident Cher/Lejeune who are now shot to fuck, but it freed longstaff & hayden to support more steve fucking bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Another that just came to mind was Luuk De Jong under Pardew. Wasn't it the same kind of talk? How he can't kick a football and can't finish good one aye, exactly the same criticism, now at sevilla so he presumably could kick a ball properly unless that deal is bent to fuck as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 https://twitter.com/ManuLonjon/status/1214440170017230848 Ryan Babel discussions apparently. Looked good at Fulham last time around. Not sure we'd put him in positions to be useful. I do like him though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Another that just came to mind was Luuk De Jong under Pardew. Wasn't it the same kind of talk? How he can't kick a football and can't finish good one aye, exactly the same criticism, now at sevilla so he presumably could kick a ball properly unless that deal is bent to fuck as well 2 goals in 16 games. Not the best example really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collage Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 half last season that was all done by in form and confident Cher/Lejeune who are now shot to fuck Not strong enough? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 A 36 year old Glenn Murray without a goal since last season would be right up our street like. He’d be our best striker. For a Bruce team he definitely would. Not very mobile but can bustle about uselessly for 90 mins, and might lash one in every few games if one drops right. We'd still get relegated, but he's got a harder shot then Joelinton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Another that just came to mind was Luuk De Jong under Pardew. Wasn't it the same kind of talk? How he can't kick a football and can't finish good one aye, exactly the same criticism, now at sevilla so he presumably could kick a ball properly unless that deal is bent to fuck as well 2 goals in 16 games. Not the best example really. way to miss the point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemagpie Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Another that just came to mind was Luuk De Jong under Pardew. Wasn't it the same kind of talk? How he can't kick a football and can't finish good one aye, exactly the same criticism, now at sevilla so he presumably could kick a ball properly unless that deal is bent to fuck as well 2 goals in 16 games. Not the best example really. way to miss the point Indeed!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Another that just came to mind was Luuk De Jong under Pardew. Wasn't it the same kind of talk? How he can't kick a football and can't finish good one aye, exactly the same criticism, now at sevilla so he presumably could kick a ball properly unless that deal is bent to fuck as well 2 goals in 16 games. Not the best example really. way to miss the point Why's that? De Jong was criticised because he wasn't very good. His time at Seville hasn't changed that. Unless I need to read back about 20 post to see what the original claim was? Even Joselu is a better example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 This narrative is getting stretched to absurd levels now. Waiting for the “Rivière was also actually good” post in 3, 2, 1... Luuk De Jong looked terrible for us. The issue is not even these individual players but the fact that we keep signing the wrong type of players for the setup we have. So I halfway agree with you guys. It matters not what these players end up doing after they leave us, it’s that we don’t have a cohesive vision or plan for how the team should play — only Rafa had this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 This narrative is getting stretched to absurd levels now. Waiting for the “Rivière was also actually good” post in 3, 2, 1... Luuk De Jong looked terrible for us. The issue is not even these individual players but the fact that we keep signing the wrong type of players for the setup we have. So I halfway agree with you guys. It matters not what these players end up doing after they leave us, it’s that we don’t have a cohesive vision or plan for how the team should play — only Rafa had this. Correct, and the problem was the club didn't want the manager choosing the players. It's not the manager, it's the policy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Geordie Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Ryan Babel next, eh? Another older player/cheap option. They could have had Rondon signed and sealed for £16million last summer, but oh no. Mike knows best! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 This narrative is getting stretched to absurd levels now. Waiting for the “Rivière was also actually good” post in 3, 2, 1... Luuk De Jong looked terrible for us. The issue is not even these individual players but the fact that we keep signing the wrong type of players for the setup we have. So I halfway agree with you guys. It matters not what these players end up doing after they leave us, it’s that we don’t have a cohesive vision or plan for how the team should play — only Rafa had this. Correct, and the problem was the club didn't want the manager choosing the players. It's not the manager, it's the policy. It's the policy without a doubt, but when you bring in a manager who has no clue how to use the type of player you are recruiting, it's a double whammy. Especially if he's got some local flavour so fans are reluctant to turn on him. Obviously a shit manager isn't going to argue with the boss that his policy is wrong. It takes a genuinely good one to do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 This narrative is getting stretched to absurd levels now. Waiting for the “Rivière was also actually good” post in 3, 2, 1... Luuk De Jong looked terrible for us. The issue is not even these individual players but the fact that we keep signing the wrong type of players for the setup we have. So I halfway agree with you guys. It matters not what these players end up doing after they leave us, it’s that we don’t have a cohesive vision or plan for how the team should play — only Rafa had this. Yes, I agree. This then leads to the problem of never really knowing how good these players could have been, which is a big problem. We've had a lot of talent come and go through the club despite the policy for signing players. I understand Luuk wasn't good for us, but when we continuously see the same narrative of all these guys not being able to kick the ball or finish simple chances for so many of these guys I think it really points out how glaring the issues at this club are. It's one thing if they weren't quite good enough, but they all end up barely looking like footballers and are thus completely written off. That is crazy. Even someone like Joselu under Rafa had his moments and made a bit of a contribution here and there despite not being that great, with some now joking that we should bring him back. As if he'd be anything near the same under Bruce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Glenn Murray would be a Premier League version of Daryl Murphy but Andy Carroll already is too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 This narrative is getting stretched to absurd levels now. Waiting for the “Rivière was also actually good” post in 3, 2, 1... Luuk De Jong looked terrible for us. The issue is not even these individual players but the fact that we keep signing the wrong type of players for the setup we have. So I halfway agree with you guys. It matters not what these players end up doing after they leave us, it’s that we don’t have a cohesive vision or plan for how the team should play — only Rafa had this. Yes, I agree. This then leads to the problem of never really knowing how good these players could have been, which is a big problem. We've had a lot of talent come and go through the club despite the policy for signing players. I understand Luuk wasn't good for us, but when we continuously see the same narrative of all these guys not being able to kick the ball or finish simple chances for so many of these guys I think it really points out how glaring the issues at this club are. It's one thing if they weren't quite good enough, but they all end up barely looking like footballers and are thus completely written off. That is crazy. Even someone like Joselu under Rafa had his moments and made a bit of a contribution here and there despite not being that great, with some now joking that we should bring him back. As if he'd be anything near the same under Bruce. Fair points. I do wonder how much of an impact our abject policy and management has on the confidence and application of skills from these signings: you can tune into a satellite and watch Luuk’s shot still trickling towards the goal line from that chance he had at SJP. How do these guys end up looking barely like professional footballers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawK Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Bring Mitro back... /tinhat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 see the rondon role was much more successful 2nd half of last season as we got players in about him, perez was especially good in that role due to his workrate off the ball and instinct to get in and around stuff in the box etc. and longstaff got forward very well playing in a more advanced team who is going to replicate that for us, ASM? highly doubtful imo, i think he's best playing in front of people almiron will be punted back to the right when ASM is fit again and will be a total waste of a shirt again so it likely won't be him either longstaff looks broken shortstaff has the potential to support from CM but unlikely to get enough game time shelvey has almost certainly peaked for the season, and anyways if we're launching it to a big man he'll be doing it so won't be in support, whereas 2nd half last season that was all done by in form and confident Cher/Lejeune who are now shot to fuck, but it freed longstaff & hayden to support more steve fucking bruce I'm going along with this. Our problem is our system cannot transition players in to useful positions around the striker to offer support properly. It would take helluva striker to be successful in this system, I think Rondon would have struggled but probably scored more than Joelinton has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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