Sven Botman

[r0cafella]

We are cursed

[Nobody]

Of course fucking of course Howe is going to rush players back from injury, play players who are carrying a slight knock and over play some players when hes had 15 players out injured ffs. Howe is a winner, he wants to win every game, so he isn't going to basically throw three games by playing kids that aren't anywhere near ready so he can ease in players who are technically fit to play.

We've seen how cautious he is with new players when given the choice, of course he would have preffered to have to done that with our injured players this season, but that option simply wasn't available to him this season. 

[dcmk]

15 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said:

You can criticise the medical team but ultimately you have to look further up.. some of these decisions were also made by Dan Ashworth as well so he’s also in the firing line alongside Eddie Howe.

 

The buck stops there really. It has to.

 

Someone made a call to leave the decision of having surgery or not up to the player himself which looks so amateur, a player will always want to play or come back with the least amount of downtime.

 

It’s been a massively frustrating season where I think the manager has come up short. Did he deserve the chance to have a go at it? Yes absolutely he did but how long does that good will last for? How much of a pass should he get?

This is a hell of a reach.

[Shadow Puppets]

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight…

 

1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem.

 

2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone.

 

3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play.

 

4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 

 

5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence.

Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything.

 

Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

[Vinny Green Balls]

14 minutes ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight…

 

1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem.

 

2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone.

 

3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play.

 

4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 

 

5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence.

Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything.

 

Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

[GideonShandy]

Should be banned for being too sensible.

[Disco]

1 hour ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight…

 

1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem.

 

2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone.

 

3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play.

 

4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 

 

5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence.

Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything.

 

Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

When it rains it pours.

[TheBrownBottle]

Howe will have taken on the medical team’s advice.  He doesn’t hold an MD - I find it incredible that if there was any chance he was aware of this that he’d play the lad.  Yes, Botman hasn’t been right since his return - but players coming back from serious injury often don’t look right for a while.  I’ve been critical of Howe rushing players back, but there’s no way he plays the lad if he was aware of this. 

 

I still think some serious questions need to be asked in the summer about our medical team / sports scientists / physios. 

[Erikse]

2 hours ago, Dr Jinx said:

You can criticise the medical team but ultimately you have to look further up.. some of these decisions were also made by Dan Ashworth as well so he’s also in the firing line alongside Eddie Howe.

 

The buck stops there really. It has to.

 

Someone made a call to leave the decision of having surgery or not up to the player himself which looks so amateur, a player will always want to play or come back with the least amount of downtime.

 

It’s been a massively frustrating season where I think the manager has come up short. Did he deserve the chance to have a go at it? Yes absolutely he did but how long does that good will last for? How much of a pass should he get?

 

I've seen this said from other managers aswell lately (Hodgson with Olise for example), and I find it really strange. "Oh he wanted to play himself but 10 minutes later he got a reoccurence, oops".

 

Is the player supposed to say "I don't want to play"? Most players will be very eager to come back even when they are not ready. But also, even if they are in doubt, they might feel like they have to show willingness to contribute. When the injury comes back, they get the blame for the decision. Great.

 

There's several reasons as to why Man City usually doesn't have many injuries. In a recent interview Guardiola said back in january that de Bruyne obviously wants to start already, but he has to protect him. His time will come.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2024 by Erikse

[Sean]

Seemed obvious a while ago the injuries would continue into next season. 

[ToonCanuck]

 wow,crazy injuries this season...smh.

[Zero]

We are going to write off our NEXT season very soon

[Erikse]

Just now, Zero said:

We are going to write off our NEXT season very soon

 

Lets hope we can field 11 players for the first game of the season.

[Zero]

To be fair, I do think everyone involved, including Howe and Botman himself, have to be responsible for this.
 

And, I even don’t have the mood to play the blame game. This is fucking disastrous. Originally we just need one more top class CB and our defence for the next few years are kinda sorted. And now we probably need to spend most of our summer budget on TWO new CB. LB / DM / RW / ST …. We need reinforcements but yea now I think we just don’t have the money now. 
 

We are really doomed. That’s what I worried most - permanent damage to our squad due to injuries, and it finally comes true.

[PauloGeordio]

Woke up to this headline. Was like Meh! I’m numb to injury news now 

[Geordie Ahmed]

At the time he made his "recovery" I immediately had reservations about not opting for surgery, the moment any form of ACL tear/rupture was seen I would have thought surgery was necessary, resting it and going again seemed like a ticking time bomb

 

If someone as unqualified as me felt it was inevitable not sure why others didn't, though admittedly as an unqualified person on this subject matter I recognise I probably talking rubbish

 

To me there are certainly questions to be asked of eirher the physios or medical department or even both. His interview at the end of last year was alarming when he said he played a couple of games before it was discovered 

 

What I do find utterly insane is anyone trying to blame Howe, unless of course your criticism is Howe should have done more by becoming qualified as a physio/doctor and more specifically specialising in knees, if that's your criticism then crack on

 

If your criticism is that Howe played him after the professionals alongside Botman were satisfied with the action taken then you clearly are a doylem and it would just be best to admit you dislike Howe and you want to blame him for everything.

 

Can you imagine Howe saying to Botman "I understand you feel fine and the scans show the all clear and doctors say you are good to carry on but I've made the decision we are going to operate on your knee", is that really what people are suggesting? Mental

[Zero]

19 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

At the time he made his "recovery" I immediately had reservations about not opting for surgery, the moment any form of ACL tear/rupture was seen I would have thought surgery was necessary, resting it and going again seemed like a ticking time bomb

 

If someone as unqualified as me felt it was inevitable not sure why others didn't, though admittedly as an unqualified person on this subject matter I recognise I probably talking rubbish

 

To me there are certainly questions to be asked of eirher the physios or medical department or even both. His interview at the end of last year was alarming when he said he played a couple of games before it was discovered 

 

What I do find utterly insane is anyone trying to blame Howe, unless of course your criticism is Howe should have done more by becoming qualified as a physio/doctor and more specifically specialising in knees, if that's your criticism then crack on

 

If your criticism is that Howe played him after the professionals alongside Botman were satisfied with the action taken then you clearly are a doylem and it would just be best to admit you dislike Howe and you want to blame him for everything.

 

Can you imagine Howe saying to Botman "I understand you feel fine and the scans show the all clear and doctors say you are good to carry on but I've made the decision we are going to operate on your knee", is that really what people are suggesting? Mental

 

Howe has admitted that this season he has told a lot of injured players that “I need you to play”.

 

If you don’t think Howe is partly responsible for this then fine. That must not be the most popular opinion anyway.

 

one of my friend just ask me “isn’t this Joelinton case again? Rushing back before fully recovered and suffer another heavy injury. This must be on Howe”.
 

I don’t know how to reply. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2024 by Zero

[Geordie Ahmed]

2 minutes ago, Zero said:

 

Howe has admitted that this season he has told a lot of injured players that “I need you to play”.

 

If you don’t think Howe is not partly responsible for this then fine. That must not be the most popular opinion anyway.

 

one of my friend just ask me “isn’t this Joelinton case again? Rushing back before fully recovered and suffer another heavy injury. This must be on Howe”.
 

I don’t know how to reply. 

 

That's a completely separate issue, he's admitted Longstaff is playing through an injury and I don't doubt other players will play through slight niggles

 

I'm specifically referring to this Botman injury, medical staff and Botman have given the all clear, what should Howe do? Just drop him until he agrees to surgery?

[kingxlnc]

When you have two goalkeepers out you're allowed to get one in on an emergency loan.

 

In the same way we need an emergency FFP relaxation or exclusion in such cases as this year where our top GK, top CB, two top midfielders, top winger and top scorer are out for long periods. It's completely unsustainable. if you can't field a full bench, you have to be able to sign someone on loan, even outside the window. 

 

If it wasn't for FFP they definitely would have strengthened in Jan, hence the Trippier and Almiron rumours to make some space. 

 

This has been the kind of season where under a different manager and this unprecedented crisis you could quite easily see us flirt with relegation and be in 16th. 

 

Howe has done a great job tbh and he hasn't even moaned about it, just got on with an extremely bad hand dealt to him, with these injuries, the ban and the cup draws.

[The College Dropout]

Thanks for sharing.  
 

If it’s the same knee though l…

[jackyboy]

I think that Krafth is more than capable and much more mobile than Lascelles 

[andycap]

Should of rested him longer we could have used burn lascelles Krafth to fill in this season and we could have used hall or tino at leftback. 

[janpawel]

For those saying we now need 2 CBs, don't you think the club will consider if we can get away with 1 CB? 

 

It would be Schar, Lascelles, new CB and Krafth who could cover until Botman was back. Leaving Tino and Trippier cover for right back

 

Then at LB, Burn could also cover CB, assuming Targett and Hall are here for LB cover 

 

I was thinking it just pushes the need for a CB up the priority list

[The Prophet]

Imagine a scenario where Botman's scans come back clear and he tells the manager he's feeling fine. Eddie drops him to the bench and it's Lascalles being pulled from pillow to post by the opposition...

 

To quote, serious questions would need to be asked.

[Froggy]

Shadow Puppets: "I've literally spoken with the associated people. This is exactly what happened."

 

N.O.'s finest: