General NUFC stuff

[Paullow]

TV games per club if anyone is interested, up until the last day of the season. We could feature there depending on what's on the line across the board:

 

Liverpool 28 (Sky 18, BT 8, Amazon 2)

Arsenal 27 (Sky 17, BT 8, Amazon 2)

Man City 27 (Sky 18, BT 7, Amazon 2)

Man Utd 27 (Sky 18, BT 7, Amazon 2)

Tottenham 27 (Sky 17, BT 8, Amazon 2)

Chelsea 24 (Sky 15, BT 7, Amazon 2)

Everton 22 (Sky 15, BT 5, Amazon 2)

West Ham 22 (Sky 17, BT 3, Amazon 2)

Newcastle 20 (Sky 13, BT 5, Amazon 2)

Leeds 19 (Sky 13, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Aston Villa 18 (Sky 12, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Crystal Palace 16 (Sky 10, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Brentford 15 (Sky 10, BT 3, Amazon 2)

Brighton 15 (Sky 8, BT 5, Amazon 2)

Leicester 15 (Sky 9, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Wolves 15 (Sky 9, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Norwich 12 (Sky 7, BT 3, Amazon 2)

Watford 12 (Sky 6, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Burnley 11 (Sky 5, BT 4, Amazon 2)

Southampton 11 (Sky 7, BT 2, Amazon 2)

 

 

 

 

[macphisto]

4 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

I do sometimes think of an alternative universe where Graham Carr's top recommendations were all listened to and signed without Ashley's tightness, where could NUFC have ended up from that solid base of 5th season, even despite Pardew's limitations. 

We could have had Salah, directly from Egypt I believe (or maybe Basel). Aubemeyang from St Etienne. Varane before Real Madrid. Too many other big names to mention. 

Carr had one hell of an eye to be honest, even his flops (Marveaux, Yanga Mbiwa, Thauvin, Mbemba et al) were still decent players but poorly coached / managed here). 

 

Goes to show, you get the wrong manager to manage your precious human resources, you destroy progress and no level of decent recruitment will help nullify the rot. 

We should be careful when talking about Carr as I wouldn't believe any information coming out of the club under Ashley. You mention the players above, but his buys were very much hit and miss. It suited the club for fans to think we had a great scout in place but were only held back by our "sustainable business model". You never read about these types of stories regarding scouts at other clubs on a regular basis. As someone who had personal discussions with Ashley and was from a football background, I also hold him partially responsible for the dysfunctional set-up of the club where we targeted players for their potential future re-sale value and not what was needed for the team. 

 

If the bloke really was missing out on all these top players then what does it say about his integrity that he was willing to work under Ashley rather than move to a club where he would have had more success in landing his top targets?

[Guest HTT II]

22 minutes ago, macphisto said:

We should be careful when talking about Carr as I wouldn't believe any information coming out of the club under Ashley. You mention the players above, but his buys were very much hit and miss. It suited the club for fans to think we had a great scout in place but were only held back by our "sustainable business model". You never read about these types of stories regarding scouts at other clubs on a regular basis. As someone who had personal discussions with Ashley and was from a football background, I also hold him partially responsible for the dysfunctional set-up of the club where we targeted players for their potential future re-sale value and not what was needed for the team. 

 

If the bloke really was missing out on all these top players then what does it say about his integrity that he was willing to work under Ashley rather than move to a club where he would have had more success in landing his top targets?

His job wasn’t to land players, but to scout and recommend them, it was then up to the club to land them. He did his job and remarkably well all things considered. It could be bull shit but I’ve heard from a few sources now that Rafa was keen to work with him and vice versa, but Rafa wanted the final say on signings.
 

Ashley being Ashley, however, showed his true colours by being a tight cunt and disloyal in that he didn’t want to pay two wages for two effective scouts and we all know how it ended with Rafa where he was constantly undermined in the transfer market and mislead to believe there would be funds available and his own targets would be objectively looked at. They weren’t.

 

He got a free reign in the Championship during the summer, only to placate him and once Ashley sensed we were going up, he vetoed any and all of Rafa’s recommendations for the January transfer window and of course the following summer and other windows under Rafa. We could have had Abraham and Loftus Cheek for example on loan in that January with an option to buy.

[Guest HTT II]

Regarding Ba, he had it all and is easily our best all-round CF since Shearer. Pace, athleticism, power, strength, clinical, but could score a variety of different goals, a good team player and could play the single CF role or with another and he could play outside and inside of the box. Today if we had him man in his prime which I believe was with us… Wilson wouldn’t get a look in!

[Optimistic Nut]

4 hours ago, buzz said:

 

Matuidi is another one we were close to I think.

 

We were unlucky that the PSG takeover happened just as we were starting to clear up Ligue 1. Gameiro was another one we were close to that summer who went there at the same time.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Optimistic Nut

[Optimistic Nut]

4 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

A lot of those players would’ve had better options. 

 

We were all in for Auba but he didn’t want to come. 
 

Most clubs have to work off second and third choices. Hopefully those days are coming to an end for us. 

 

To an extent, aye. But we then started losing out on players like Bony & Gomis to Swansea for the sake of a couple of million quid.

[macphisto]

22 minutes ago, HTT II said:

His job wasn’t to land players, but to scout and recommend them, it was then up to the club to land them. He did his job and remarkably well all things considered. It could be bull shit but I’ve heard from a few sources now that Rafa was keen to work with him and vice versa, but Rafa wanted the final say on signings.
 

Ashley being Ashley, however, showed his true colours by being a tight cunt and disloyal in that he didn’t want to pay two wages for two effective scouts and we all know how it ended with Rafa where he was constantly undermined in the transfer market and mislead to believe there would be funds available and his own targets would be objectively looked at. They weren’t.

 

He got a free reign in the Championship during the summer, only to placate him and once Ashley sensed we were going up, he vetoed any and all of Rafa’s recommendations for the January transfer window and of course the following summer and other windows under Rafa. We could have had Abraham and Loftus Cheek for example on loan in that January with an option to buy.

Remarkably well? Judging him by who we did sign and not those that allegedly "got away", he was distinctly average in my view. I do respect your opinions but I'm not too interested in discussing the merits of players we signed under his watch so best to agree to disagree. I'd much rather discuss the merits of signing Rashford and other future players!

 

The main point I was trying to make is that I don't believe anything that came out of the club during Ashley's time and I have nothing but utter contempt for anyone who was willing to work at the club during that time. I hold Carr along with Charnley, most of the managers and others as all being equally responsible for the way the club was allowed to rot. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by macphisto

[Guest HTT II]

6 minutes ago, macphisto said:

Remarkably well? Judging him by who we did sign and not those that allegedly "got away", he was distinctly average in my view. I do respect your opinions but I'm not too interested in discussing the merits of players we signed under his watch so best to agree to disagree. I'd much rather discuss the merits of signing Rashford and other future players!

 

The main point I was trying to make is that I don't believe anything that came out of the club during Ashley's time and I have nothing but utter contempt for anyone who was willing to work at the club during that time. I hold Carr along with Charnley, most of the managers and others as all being equally responsible for the way the club was allowed to rot. 

 

 

 

So you hold Hughton and Rafa responsible too? Carr’s job was strictly to scout and recommend players, he recommend lots of good payers, some average ones and some shit ones. Mostly we did well from his recommendations. Without Carr Pardew would have a relegation on his CV at NUFC. If Rafa who has his own database of every player in the game all over the world in terms of data thought Carr was worth keeping, that leads me to believe he was of value and he was. 

[Guest HTT II]

9 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

But every scout basically misses out on targets, I think you’re over estimating how easily he would get another job. 

From my understanding most clubs these days sub contract their scouting network, and scouts in general scout players, build data and analysis and offer recommendations and have very little to do with who signs who. In the end it’s mostly down to contacts and relationships with x club, or manager or player. it’s the same with agents. Most scouts at under 9 level will turn up sporting an NUFC badge one week, then an SAFC the next or Boro.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

This is why Rafa has his own database or players and then gets his own network of scouts he trusts who are mainly freelance to go and watch a player for him. 

[macphisto]

Just now, ManDoon said:

But every scout basically misses out on targets, I think you’re over estimating how easily he would get another job. 

Yet you never hear about the other scouts missing their targets as much as we did about Carr. Why was that? If anything he and the club should have been embarrassed by how many top players we  "allegedly" lost out on. It comes back to how they used to speak in the fans forum in their condescending tone where they had a "sustainable business model" all backed up by people like Ferdinand and others who claimed Ashley was an amazing businessman. Part of the "sustainable business model" was this great scout in Graham Carr but we couldn't get his top signings as we didn't have the wealth of Abu Dhabi, to paraphrase Ashley, whilst completely ignoring every other team in the league.

 

Not that well paid, we don't know what he was on. He didn't need the money and it must have been manna from heaven to be given a 8 year contract. He also wasn't a normal scout, he was in direct communications with Ashley. I have no time for the bloke and we did get relegated twice during that time and flirted with relegation most seasons. Something as the Chief Scout he had a hand in though by no means the only one responsible for that. 

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, ManDoon said:

Pretty much yeah. Carr was old when he worked for us, you’re lucky if you have a long term contract, it’s his livelihood at the end of the day. He won’t be a millionaire like Bruce, I think it’s unfair for people to say he should have just resigned. 

 Bruce has taken 20m + out of the clubs he’s screwed over as a failed manager, and the likes of Carr bring that and more into the game with his knowledge and keen aye, it’s very skewered. I’d trust a dead Carr from his grave recommending a player for us to sign over Bruce 7 days a week.

[Optimistic Nut]

Just now, macphisto said:

Yet you never hear about the other scouts missing their targets as much as we did about Carr. Why was that? If anything he and the club should have been embarrassed by how many top players we  "allegedly" lost out on. It comes back to how they used to speak in the fans forum in their condescending tone where they had a "sustainable business model" all backed up by people like Ferdinand and others who claimed Ashley was an amazing businessman. Part of the "sustainable business model" was this great scout in Graham Carr but we couldn't get his top signings as we didn't have the wealth of Abu Dhabi, to paraphrase Ashley, whilst completely ignoring every other team in the league.

 

Not that well paid, we don't know what he was on. He didn't need the money and it must have been manna from heaven to be given a 8 year contract. He also wasn't a normal scout, he was in direct communications with Ashley. I have no time for the bloke and we did get relegated twice during that time and flirted with relegation most seasons. Something as the Chief Scout he had a hand in though by no means the only one responsible for that. 

 

 

Because we saw early on the players we were getting under Carr. Then the market he was using started getting used by other clubs around us at the time (Villa, Swansea, etc) and they were paying the additional few million to secure players. Ashley on the other hand, didn't go with this and just went further down the list until we came away with the likes of Riviere.

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, macphisto said:

Yet you never hear about the other scouts missing their targets as much as we did about Carr. Why was that? If anything he and the club should have been embarrassed by how many top players we  "allegedly" lost out on. It comes back to how they used to speak in the fans forum in their condescending tone where they had a "sustainable business model" all backed up by people like Ferdinand and others who claimed Ashley was an amazing businessman. Part of the "sustainable business model" was this great scout in Graham Carr but we couldn't get his top signings as we didn't have the wealth of Abu Dhabi, to paraphrase Ashley, whilst completely ignoring every other team in the league.

 

Not that well paid, we don't know what he was on. He didn't need the money and it must have been manna from heaven to be given a 8 year contract. He also wasn't a normal scout, he was in direct communications with Ashley. I have no time for the bloke and we did get relegated twice during that time and flirted with relegation most seasons. Something as the Chief Scout he had a hand in though by no means the only one responsible for that. 

Why should he be embarrassed, he scouted them first and recommended them first and then it is all on the club to then get that player or players. We missed out in many cases but because of Carr, but because of Ashley. He did his job as expected and then some and aced it at times, you have a weird take on this and his role or accountability for the shit we ended up with or in under Ashley. 
 

Carr: I recommend PEA

Ashley: Nah

Carr: OK

[macphisto]

10 minutes ago, HTT II said:

So you hold Hughton and Rafa responsible too? Carr’s job was strictly to scout and recommend players, he recommend lots of good payers, some average ones and some shit ones. Mostly we did well from his recommendations. Without Carr Pardew would have a relegation on his CV at NUFC. If Rafa who has his own database of every player in the game all over the world in terms of data thought Carr was worth keeping, that leads me to believe he was of value and he was. 

No, I don't hold Hughton or Rafa responsible. Hughton was dropped into the role and was only a manager for a short time. Rafa, understandably thought he could change the way the club was run as he was head and shoulders above the other managers we had under Ashley. Once he knew the club wouldn't change then he left. 

 

I don't think his job was to strictly scout and recommend players, at least not in the traditional way of doing things; as I said previously he was in direct communications with Ashley, that is not how a normal club operates. He was a crucial part of a dysfunctional setup where players were bought solely for their potential resale value without any care to what the team needed.  You also can't say for sure we would have been relegated without Carr as we don't know who we would have signed if he wasn't in place. 

[Paully]

53 minutes ago, HTT II said:

His job wasn’t to land players, but to scout and recommend them, it was then up to the club to land them. He did his job and remarkably well all things considered. It could be bull shit but I’ve heard from a few sources now that Rafa was keen to work with him and vice versa, but Rafa wanted the final say on signings.
 

Ashley being Ashley, however, showed his true colours by being a tight cunt and disloyal in that he didn’t want to pay two wages for two effective scouts and we all know how it ended with Rafa where he was constantly undermined in the transfer market and mislead to believe there would be funds available and his own targets would be objectively looked at. They weren’t.

 

He got a free reign in the Championship during the summer, only to placate him and once Ashley sensed we were going up, he vetoed any and all of Rafa’s recommendations for the January transfer window and of course the following summer and other windows under Rafa. We could have had Abraham and Loftus Cheek for example on loan in that January with an option to buy.

Spot on mate - as well as those two, he also had Townsend coming back in January who wasn’t getting his game but that wanker Barnes told him we were five points clear so didn’t need anybody and would reassess in the summer - clueless wanker!

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Paully

[Guest HTT II]

Scouts are generally underpaid in the game and their job or role is incumbent on so many factors which usually boil down to £s as to their success/fail rate. I could recommend a tonne of under 9 players to NUFC who are easily better than their current crop, who are really good, but our club right now want certain types of kids with a certain set of traits. Sound familiar? 
 

Ashley: Get me someone with a low release clause!

Carr: OK

 

Ashley: Get me someone that will cost x amount:

Carr: OK

 

Ashley: How much? Nah, get Carroll on the phone!

Carr: OK

 

A good scout does his job well by doing what his employer requires from him and under Ashley that was low price potential purples we could cash in on, on the pitch in terms of their quality and off the pitch in resale value.

 

Carr: ££££££

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by HTT II

[macphisto]

8 minutes ago, HTT II said:

 Bruce has taken 20m + out of the clubs he’s screwed over as a failed manager, and the likes of Carr bring that and more into the game with his knowledge and keen aye, it’s very skewered. I’d trust a dead Carr from his grave recommending a player for us to sign over Bruce 7 days a week.

Name two players Carr signed for us better value than Bruce at Hull with Robertson and Maguire? That is not me defending Bruce but rather to show that someone like Bruce can even get it right now and again and the examples given better than Carr ever did. 

[macphisto]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Chief scout/dof definitely has a direct like to the owner at every club. Even the one I work for. That’s normal 

Not under Newcastle where he was often in contact with Ashley more than the manager. 

 

[Guest HTT II]

10 minutes ago, macphisto said:

No, I don't hold Hughton or Rafa responsible. Hughton was dropped into the role and was only a manager for a short time. Rafa, understandably thought he could change the way the club was run as he was head and shoulders above the other managers we had under Ashley. Once he knew the club wouldn't change then he left. 

 

I don't think his job was to strictly scout and recommend players, at least not in the traditional way of doing things; as I said previously he was in direct communications with Ashley, that is not how a normal club operates. He was a crucial part of a dysfunctional setup where players were bought solely for their potential resale value without any care to what the team needed.  You also can't say for sure we would have been relegated without Carr as we don't know who we would have signed if he wasn't in place. 

He was doing his job man 

 

Rafa did his job getting us promoted and keeping us up, Carr did his job getting us players to do that job for the owner and manager and to also profit from. Take away Carr and we go down under Pardew with a team of Marlon Harewood’s man!

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

4 minutes ago, macphisto said:

Name two players Carr signed for us better value than Bruce at Hull with Robertson and Maguire? That is not me defending Bruce but rather to show that someone like Bruce can even get it right now and again and the examples given better than Carr ever did. 

Ah, but was it Bruce who scouted them or a scout? I guarantee he was recommended them and if the price is right Brucie…

[macphisto]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

Cabaye, Remy, Debuchy, Ba, Tiote,? Also Bruce didn’t scout them. 

Not one of them is the equivalent of Robertson in their position and Maguire on the international stage outperforms them too. He might not have identified them initially but I wouldn't be surprised of he when to watch them before giving the go ahead to sign them (Speaking from ignorance but I think Bruce would have played a part in domestic signings).

[Guest HTT II]

9 minutes ago, Paully said:

Spot on mate - as well as those two, he also had Townsend coming back in January who wasn’t getting his game but that wanker Barnes told him we were five points clear so didn’t need anybody and would reassess in the summer - clueless wanker!

 

 

 

Aye, he wanted a ‘keeper, Townsend back, Abraham, Loftus Cheek and Kennedy, all potentially on loan in January with a view to buy, all for under 40m.

[Optimistic Nut]

7 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Cabaye, Remy, Debuchy, Ba, Tiote,? Also Bruce didn’t scout them. 

 

Sissoko for under £2m and making 10x that back on him. 

[Optimistic Nut]

Even signing Gouffran for about £600k was ridiculous.