James Maddison (now playing for Tottenham Hotspur)

[Optimistic Nut]

36 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

No it’s not. Sissoko made over 200 appearances for Spurs. 
 

Robertson and block head from Hull? Carrick, Defoe and Cole when West Ham went down. 
 

There’s usually good players to get from relegation teams.  

 

Demba Ba part of a West Ham team that got relegated even if he didn't come directly from them, Wilson from Bournemouth...

[Conjo]

1 hour ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Aside from his penalty I thought he was by far Leicester's best player last night. Everything good they did went through him. 

 

I think it is intentional the way they set up that almost everything goes through him, and I think that is the way you get the most out of him. I don't think that is something we should do, and not something we are able to do the way we currently play.

[papo]

9 hours ago, geordiemag said:

 

Yes I agree totally. I looked at the Leicester team tonight and to me, no one gets in our 11

Nah… Barnes and Maddison can get for sure, just look at their stats this season (for example Barnes has 10 goals). I’d love both here.

[Dr Jinx]

13 hours ago, Shak said:

 

I'm not sure there are many players who fit the bill in this regard, like

 

I would be super intrigued to see him in Murphy's current role. Think he and Trippier linking up would be quality. Maddison was poor tonight but thought a lot of his better work came when he drifted out to that side.

 

If he did come in I wonder if he'll play one of the wide roles quite a bit. Not sure there's enough pace and power in a three man CM with Bruno and Maddison. My inclination would be to leave Bruno as the base of the midfield, pulling a the strings. Then stick two absolute bags of energy either side of him. Maddison doesn't fit the bill in this regard.

We already have this though. Big Joe and Longstaff adequately fulfill that role and we can see a dip in how we press (and how effective it is) when he doesn’t play.

 

Big Joe is more for personal battles, he’s someone who won’t just let like the likes of Declan Rice dominate a game.

[The College Dropout]

3 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

Demba Ba part of a West Ham team that got relegated even if he didn't come directly from them, Wilson from Bournemouth...

Aye - it's a terrible argument.

[LFEE]

5 hours ago, STM said:

He's absolutely class. He's playing in a shite side who not only don't keep the ball but also spend way too much time defending.

 

Its dead easy for good players to look average from time to time in shite sides.

 

Give him a summer with Eddie and the boys, 60% possession most weeks and Bruno by his side and let's see what Madders can do. Isak and Wilson will get 20 each next year.

That’s the issue though isn’t it surely? You replace someone who presses and wins the ball back relentlessly to give us 60% with Maddison you end up with less possession.

[greydos]

5 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

No it’s not. Sissoko made over 200 appearances for Spurs. 
 

Robertson and block head from Hull? Carrick, Defoe and Cole when West Ham went down. 
 

There’s usually good players to get from relegation teams.  

 

4 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

Demba Ba part of a West Ham team that got relegated even if he didn't come directly from them, Wilson from Bournemouth...

 

48 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Aye - it's a terrible argument.

May I add, for both sides of the argument, Wout Weghorst? 

[HaydnNUFC]

Maddison is class and I would still love him here. But I'd rather get Diaby or Raphinha tbh, someone in that mould for the right side.

[Mikky]

2 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

Maddison is class and I would still love him here. But I'd rather get Diaby or Raphinha tbh, someone in that mould for the right side.

I would love to get Chukwueze from Villarreal - fits the bill nicely 

[STM]

1 hour ago, LFEE said:

That’s the issue though isn’t it surely? You replace someone who presses and wins the ball back relentlessly to give us 60% with Maddison you end up with less possession.

 

Pressing is very much a teachable skill. Provided someone has the fitness and attitude, it's an easy thing to teach.

 

What the likes of Bruno and Maddison do on the ball, is virtually impossible to teach.

[Shak]

2 hours ago, Dr Jinx said:

We already have this though. Big Joe and Longstaff adequately fulfill that role and we can see a dip in how we press (and how effective it is) when he doesn’t play.

 

Big Joe is more for personal battles, he’s someone who won’t just let like the likes of Declan Rice dominate a game.

 

Aye, my point was that I think Maddison would probably be best used in the front three so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with?

[Shak]

Think people are getting a bit carried away with how much of an absolute pressmentalist they expect all our players to be, I must say

 

Do think it is and will rightly continue to be a huge part of how we play but you do need a bit of variety in your squad.

 

We're sorely lacking an attacking player who can regularly play a killer ball in the final third, something that is going to be more and more necessary as we continue to improve and more and more sides set themselves up to defend deep against us.

 

If we sign Maddison it's not going to be like we're building the team around him. He's just a type of player we don't really have who'll give us some variety in how we can set up.

[Viana]

7 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

No it’s not. Sissoko made over 200 appearances for Spurs. 
 

Robertson and block head from Hull? Carrick, Defoe and Cole when West Ham went down. 
 

There’s usually good players to get from relegation teams.  

Three of those mentioned were from over 15 years ago, so let’s ease up on the “terrible argument” and keep it respectful. I’m talking about at least in the last 5-10 years, and even then, I’m preaching caution not avoidance. Sorry if you didn’t understand that.

 

Because sure we got Wilson but we also took Fraser. Jamal Lewis has been poor.
 

Also, we all laughed at getting 30m for Sissoko - he was aspiring to mediocrity at Spurs, so let’s not rewrite history.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Viana

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

3 minutes ago, Viana said:

Also, we all laughed at getting 30m for Sissoko - he was aspiring to mediocrity at Spurs, so let’s not rewrite history.

 

And yet both him and Wijnaldum faced off in a Champions League final not too long afterwards. What we would give for such ‘mediocrity' eh?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Sissoko was average. 

[Viana]

4 minutes ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

And yet both him and Wijnaldum faced off in a Champions League final not too long afterwards. What we would give for such ‘mediocrity' eh?

We can all name poor players that played in big games.

[ponsaelius]

There's often good players in relegated teams. I actually think that's becoming more and more the case now PL clubs are becoming better at scouting and signing from all markets. Honestly these days loads of good players are already in the PL player pool - it's not the early 2000s anymore. It's often no slight on a player to be in a relegated team that has a good scouting process but bad overall operations and coaching. Anguissa was relegated with a dreadful and chaotic Fulham side but has been brilliant for Napoli as a recent example.

 

However it's definitely a case of seeing past the numbers/MOTD highlights and picking those with genuine quality. It takes good scouting not just a case of picking those who have stood out in a relegated side. Indeed often players can shine in relegated sides because of the way said team plays to their benefit. A no frills CB looking great because he's in a side that defends deep (Scott Dann/Roger Johnson), a striker scoring loads because the whole team is built to feed them (Charlie Austin). I was worried Pope was a goalkeeper making lots of saves just because his team was under pressure all the time - but we clearly looked well past just the stats for that one.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by ponsaelius

[PauloGeordio]

 

[The College Dropout]

On 02/05/2023 at 17:21, Viana said:

Three of those mentioned were from over 15 years ago, so let’s ease up on the “terrible argument” and keep it respectful. I’m talking about at least in the last 5-10 years, and even then, I’m preaching caution not avoidance. Sorry if you didn’t understand that.

 

Because sure we got Wilson but we also took Fraser. Jamal Lewis has been poor.
 

Also, we all laughed at getting 30m for Sissoko - he was aspiring to mediocrity at Spurs, so let’s not rewrite history.

 

 

 

Sissoko played over 200 games for Spurs under some of the most rated managers of all time.

Wilson.

Pope.

Schar.

People wanetd Joao Pedro.

Conor Gallagher.

 

 

There's not dozens of examples because teams that get relegated are mostly filled with players not good enough for the division. But it doesn't mean that every player is bad.

 

On 02/05/2023 at 17:32, ponsaelius said:

There's often good players in relegated teams. I actually think that's becoming more and more the case now PL clubs are becoming better at scouting and signing from all markets. Honestly these days loads of good players are already in the PL player pool - it's not the early 2000s anymore. It's often no slight on a player to be in a relegated team that has a good scouting process but bad overall operations and coaching. Anguissa was relegated with a dreadful and chaotic Fulham side but has been brilliant for Napoli as a recent example.

 

However it's definitely a case of seeing past the numbers/MOTD highlights and picking those with genuine quality. It takes good scouting not just a case of picking those who have stood out in a relegated side. Indeed often players can shine in relegated sides because of the way said team plays to their benefit. A no frills CB looking great because he's in a side that defends deep (Scott Dann/Roger Johnson), a striker scoring loads because the whole team is built to feed them (Charlie Austin). I was worried Pope was a goalkeeper making lots of saves just because his team was under pressure all the time - but we clearly looked well past just the stats for that one.

 

 

 

Actual playing stats suggested Pope was a much better GK than Dubs for a team at a higher level. Much more active off his line as we've seen - even for Burnley both in terms of sweeping and collecting crosses.

 

Once I looked at Pope's playing stats I was confident he had much more to his game than Dubs did.

 

It's typically harder to judge midfielders and attackers in bad teams. I'm confident Lavia will  be some player just because he's a baller. But because Southampton are so bad it's hard to see his whole game

[Alberto2005]

27 minutes ago, PauloGeordio said:

 

Mentions about us not going for players who see us as a backup, but didn't Botman prefer Milan over us?

[Shadow Puppets]

1 minute ago, Alberto2005 said:

Mentions about us not going for players who see us as a backup, but didn't Botman prefer Milan over us?

No. (And I can say that from the horses mouth)

[Manxst]

1 minute ago, Alberto2005 said:

Mentions about us not going for players who see us as a backup, but didn't Botman prefer Milan over us?

Only in the eyes of the Italian press. Don’t think he said anything himself, to that effect? Subsequently they made out he only came to us because we offered much more money. Who knows where he’d be if both offers matched? 

[Viana]

28 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Sissoko played over 200 games for Spurs under some of the most rated managers of all time.

Wilson.

Pope.

Schar.

People wanetd Joao Pedro.

Conor Gallagher.

 

 

There's not dozens of examples because teams that get relegated are mostly filled with players not good enough for the division. But it doesn't mean that every player is bad.

 

Actual playing stats suggested Pope was a much better GK than Dubs for a team at a higher level. Much more active off his line as we've seen - even for Burnley both in terms of sweeping and collecting crosses.

 

Once I looked at Pope's playing stats I was confident he had much more to his game than Dubs did.

 

It's typically harder to judge midfielders and attackers in bad teams. I'm confident Lavia will  be some player just because he's a baller. But because Southampton are so bad it's hard to see his whole game

Conor Gallagher was a loan player that’s different.

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, Viana said:

Conor Gallagher was a loan player that’s different.

Why is it different?

[STM]

The idea that there arent good players amongst relegated clubs is nonsensical. Why would that be a thing?