Football pet hates

[Tooj]

Letting Walcott go wasn't the wrong decision IMO.

 

Can't be arsed to read the rest.

[triggs]

Giroud proved many times that he wasn't good enough consistently and especially when he started against big teams. Sanchez was leaving in the summer anyway. Wilshere wasn't even a guaranteed starter at Bournemouth last season and isn't Arsenal's best player. You seem to just be repeating whatever your brother in law says

[Stifler]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that a lot of that is strawman and numpties rather than the majority. Arsenal should absolutely be competing for the title, like. They've gone backwards and backwards and backwards. When they're top 10 should they not complain about no longer being in the Europa because they're not threatened by relegation?

 

Honestly, after the Pardew years of being told that we were 'where we should be' and being called 'deluded' for wanting more, you'd think football fans in general would take their own experiences into account and learn something.

I get the point that they should in their mind be competing, I get that. however there is a lot of them (or latest they make up the vocal ones) who insist that winning the FA Cup doesn't count as success and that they are owed winning the title. It doesn't matter how big you are as a club, you are never owed winning success, and discrediting the FA Cup as success is a disgrace. Those arguing that they should be doing better, and should probably have a team competing, I get.

[wormy]

How many of them really feel they're owed a title? Feels like the same sort of argument that us NUFC fans rightly hate and have to battle with the whole 'deluded Geordies' moniker.

 

Fair play to the Arsenal fans for speaking up and stating Wenger's past it and won't have them challenging again as that's all I generally see or hear, not 'we should be winning the title'.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that a lot of that is strawman and numpties rather than the majority. Arsenal should absolutely be competing for the title, like. They've gone backwards and backwards and backwards. When they're top 10 should they not complain about no longer being in the Europa because they're not threatened by relegation?

 

Honestly, after the Pardew years of being told that we were 'where we should be' and being called 'deluded' for wanting more, you'd think football fans in general would take their own experiences into account and learn something.

I get the point that they should in their mind be competing, I get that. however there is a lot of them (or latest they make up the vocal ones) who insist that winning the FA Cup doesn't count as success and that they are owed winning the title. It doesn't matter how big you are as a club, you are never owed winning success, and discrediting the FA Cup as success is a disgrace. Those arguing that they should be doing better, and should probably have a team competing, I get.

 

The FA Cup isn't success for them though, that's the point, they used to win titles, then they competed for titles, then they competed for the top 4, then they competed for the cups, now they compete for the Europa. Of course they've gone backwards and although some of that is to do with the landscape changing and teams getting better, it's much more to do with them getting worse. Again, I don't believe for a second that there are a significant amount of Arsenal fans who think they're owed the title, like.

 

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Arsenal were good 10+ years ago, but they’re very average now and their squad is probably reflective of where they are in the league. Why should the FA Cup not be success to them? What else are they going to win? They’re not good enough as a group of players to compete to win anything else.

[wormy]

Arsenal were good 10+ years ago, but they’re very average now and their squad is probably reflective of where they are in the league. Why should the FA Cup not be success to them? What else are they going to win? They’re not good enough as a group of players to compete to win anything else.

 

Erm.. Isn't that their whole argument? Why has the bolded been allowed to happen?

 

Think I've made this point before but it still shocks me that people on here, fans of a team who quite often agree Sir Bobby should've gone the summer after we finished fifth as he was losing his touch, are shocked that Arsenal fans are pissed that Wenger's been allowed to spend the past decade taking them from title contenders to scrabbling just to stay in European spots.

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Arsenal were good 10+ years ago, but they’re very average now and their squad is probably reflective of where they are in the league. Why should the FA Cup not be success to them? What else are they going to win? They’re not good enough as a group of players to compete to win anything else.

 

Erm.. Isn't that their whole argument? Why has the bolded been allowed to happen?

 

Think I've made this point before but it still shocks me that people on here, fans of a team who quite often agree Sir Bobby should've gone the summer after we finished fifth as he was losing his touch, are shocked that Arsenal fans are pissed that Wenger's been allowed to spend the past decade taking them from title contenders to scrabbling just to stay in European spots.

 

You could say the same about Leeds & Nottingham Forest, you could make that argument for nearly every club at some stage in their lifetime. Coventry, Portsmouth, Leyton Orient, Hartlepool... they’ve all been allowed to regress. Manchester United have regressed to some degree.

 

It happens in football, other clubs will get better and improve around you - we cant all constantly be successful.

 

I’m not discrediting Arsenal fans for wanting Wenger out, but to be fair, they’re still not a unanimous voice wanting him out. If they sit there eating their cous cous in silence watching the match, rather than voicing their own opinion - why should I stand and fight their corner about how poorly they’ve been treated?

[joeyt]

Could that paragraph not be the same with us and Pardew?

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Could that paragraph not be the same with us and Pardew?

 

Probably, which is probably why we didn’t manage to get rid of him - too many people just willing to lay down and take it. Cant also remember many fans of other clubs feeling sorry for us either.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Letting Walcott go wasn't the wrong decision IMO.

 

Can't be arsed to read the rest.

 

I think it was, he was a source of goals and assists from the bench when fit and a player who would at least turn up in big games.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Giroud proved many times that he wasn't good enough consistently and especially when he started against big teams. Sanchez was leaving in the summer anyway. Wilshere wasn't even a guaranteed starter at Bournemouth last season and isn't Arsenal's best player. You seem to just be repeating whatever your brother in law says

 

I have to kind of agree with what my brother in law says given he watches them week in week out... I assume you watch them week in and week out also?!

 

Giroud was a source of goals and another who would turn up in big games. Wilshere is their best player at the moment in terms of work rate, commitment and putting in a performance, he was their best player in the cup final IMO. Mind that’s not saying much given how poor they were all over the park.

 

Sanchez was free to leave, but Arsenal allowed that to happen and while he was being allowed to leave they hand Ozil a new contract...

 

Arsenal’s best players for a while now have at some point wanted to leave and that’s because they cannot compete for the title and CL honours.

 

They should seriously look at Ancelotti and while I doubt they’d take to Rafa’s football, he would shore them up, make them more competitive and would get more out of some of the players than Wenger is doing. I know my brother in law would have him to tomorrow. A dark horse would be Mancini. Either way Wenger has to go.

 

I look at Arsenal now and they are such a poor team with average players for where they need to be at despite a huge spend. Even their best so-called player in Ozil is now s***, a total luxury player who just gives up so easily as he did yesterday when being beaten to the ball by Walker. He allowed his man to not only ease him off the ball, but turn and take it forward while he was hands on hips looking forlorn. Unacceptable for a player that cost so much, gets paid so much and is considered their best player.

 

They need a new ‘keeper, back four and midfield. Their forwards are more than good enough but are cut adrift and it’s either long balls on the counter or they play down the flanks and not the middle. This is the poorest football Arsenal have served up under Wenger, it’s so disjointed and lacking conviction. It’s as if they are hoping a purple does the business ala Pardew.

[triggs]

Giroud proved many times that he wasn't good enough consistently and especially when he started against big teams. Sanchez was leaving in the summer anyway. Wilshere wasn't even a guaranteed starter at Bournemouth last season and isn't Arsenal's best player. You seem to just be repeating whatever your brother in law says

 

I have to kind of agree with what my brother in law says given he watches them week in week out... I assume you watch them week in and week out also?!

 

Giroud was a source of goals and another who would turn up in big games. Wilshere is their best player at the moment in terms of work rate, commitment and putting in a performance, he was their best player in the cup final IMO. Mind that’s not saying much given how poor they were all over the park.

 

Sanchez was free to leave, but Arsenal allowed that to happen and while he was being allowed to leave they had Ozil a new contract...

 

Arsenal’s best players for a while now have at some point wanted to leave and that’s because they cannot compete for the title and CL honours.

 

They should seriously look at Ancelotti and while I doubt they’d take to Rafa’s football, he would sore them up, make them more competitive and would get more out of some of the players than Wenger is doing. I know. Y brother in law would have him to tomorrow. A dark horse would be Mancini. Either way Wenger has to go.

 

I look at Arsenal now and they are such a poor team with average players for where they need to be at despite a huge spend. Even their best so-called player in Ozil is shit, a total luxury player who just gives up so easily as he did yesterday when being beaten to the ball by Walker. He allowed his man to not only ease him off the ball, but turn and take it forward while he was hands on hips looking forlorn. Unacceptable for a player that cost so much, gets paid so much and is considered their best player.

 

They need a new ‘keeper, back four and midfield. Their forwards are more than good enough but are cut adrift and it’s either long balls on the counter or they play down the flanks and not the middle. This is the poorest football Arsenal have served up under Wenger, it’s so disjointed and lacking conviction. It’s as if they are hoping a purple does the business ala Pardew.

Your brother in law is just one fan. Most people on here watch us every week yet there are always arguments about certain things on here. Giroud was awful in big games whenever he started in them, he scored a few goals off the bench but that's not the same. Sanchez was allowed to leave because he really badly wanted to leave, it wasn't a case of one or the other with him and Ozil

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Arsenal were good 10+ years ago, but they’re very average now and their squad is probably reflective of where they are in the league. Why should the FA Cup not be success to them? What else are they going to win? They’re not good enough as a group of players to compete to win anything else.

 

Erm.. Isn't that their whole argument? Why has the bolded been allowed to happen?

 

Think I've made this point before but it still shocks me that people on here, fans of a team who quite often agree Sir Bobby should've gone the summer after we finished fifth as he was losing his touch, are shocked that Arsenal fans are p*ssed that Wenger's been allowed to spend the past decade taking them from title contenders to scrabbling just to stay in European spots.

 

You could say the same about Leeds & Nottingham Forest, you could make that argument for nearly every club at some stage in their lifetime. Coventry, Portsmouth, Leyton Orient, Hartlepool... they’ve all been allowed to regress. Manchester United have regressed to some degree.

 

It happens in football, other clubs will get better and improve around you - we cant all constantly be successful.

 

I’m not discrediting Arsenal fans for wanting Wenger out, but to be fair, they’re still not a unanimous voice wanting him out. If they sit there eating their cous cous in silence watching the match, rather than voicing their own opinion - why should I stand and fight their corner about how poorly they’ve been treated?

 

Football is like that of course, but why shouldn’t Arsenal fans not want their team be more competitive and to challenge formthe title given how much is spent on players, player wages, how much they spend on tickets etc. They are a huge club, only 3rd to Man Utd and Liverpool IMO and even then they are more trractive than Liverpool given they are based in the capital. Spurs have completely taken ove them in every way without daft wages and spending mega money, in comparison anyway. It’s down to Wenger, his poor buys and the lack of leadership in the team and in the dugout. He just sits there looking miserable while Bould looks on even more miserable. My brother in law makes a good point, Arsenal are all Wenger has while Arsenal have a lot more. Fantastic stadium, prime location, still a big name, some decent players and a club a whole host of top managers would love to manage.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Giroud proved many times that he wasn't good enough consistently and especially when he started against big teams. Sanchez was leaving in the summer anyway. Wilshere wasn't even a guaranteed starter at Bournemouth last season and isn't Arsenal's best player. You seem to just be repeating whatever your brother in law says

 

I have to kind of agree with what my brother in law says given he watches them week in week out... I assume you watch them week in and week out also?!

 

Giroud was a source of goals and another who would turn up in big games. Wilshere is their best player at the moment in terms of work rate, commitment and putting in a performance, he was their best player in the cup final IMO. Mind that’s not saying much given how poor they were all over the park.

 

Sanchez was free to leave, but Arsenal allowed that to happen and while he was being allowed to leave they had Ozil a new contract...

 

Arsenal’s best players for a while now have at some point wanted to leave and that’s because they cannot compete for the title and CL honours.

 

They should seriously look at Ancelotti and while I doubt they’d take to Rafa’s football, he would sore them up, make them more competitive and would get more out of some of the players than Wenger is doing. I know. Y brother in law would have him to tomorrow. A dark horse would be Mancini. Either way Wenger has to go.

 

I look at Arsenal now and they are such a poor team with average players for where they need to be at despite a huge spend. Even their best so-called player in Ozil is s***, a total luxury player who just gives up so easily as he did yesterday when being beaten to the ball by Walker. He allowed his man to not only ease him off the ball, but turn and take it forward while he was hands on hips looking forlorn. Unacceptable for a player that cost so much, gets paid so much and is considered their best player.

 

They need a new ‘keeper, back four and midfield. Their forwards are more than good enough but are cut adrift and it’s either long balls on the counter or they play down the flanks and not the middle. This is the poorest football Arsenal have served up under Wenger, it’s so disjointed and lacking conviction. It’s as if they are hoping a purple does the business ala Pardew.

Your brother in law is just one fan. Most people on here watch us every week yet there are always arguments about certain things on here. Giroud was awful in big games whenever he started in them, he scored a few goals off the bench but that's not the same. Sanchez was allowed to leave because he really badly wanted to leave, it wasn't a case of one or the other with him and Ozil

 

He is one fan, but a sane and knowledgeable fan. Again do you watch them week in week out? I disagree about Giroud, if Wenger had the foresight to start him and change their game plan slightly, he would have scored more goals and they would have done better. I know it wasn’t a case of Ozil or Sanchez, but that shows you how badly they are managed these days that their star player is allowed to leave while their other star player who is under performing and clearly doesn’t want to be there either gets a new contract. An act of appeasement IMO. It shouldn’t come to that at a club like Arsenal.

[Mbemba Youre A Womble]

Don't think that too many of their players aren't talented, or don't have the requisite skill to play Champions League level. Some are clearly out of their depth, but would fancy many of them to be able to cut it at bigger clubs across Europe.

 

For a hell of a long time they have lacked a core group of players that is able to unify the squad through leadership and consistent high quality performances, especially in big games. All the years Chelsea were succeeding in-spite of managerial change they had the group of Cech, Lampard, Drogba, Terry. That's allowed an incredible reliability which eases new players in the side, and elevates performances from those around them and fringe players too.

 

Probably been the case for the last 10 years since Henry, Gilberto, Campbell left (likely getting years muddled together there).

 

Bellerin, Mustafi, Xakha aren't fundamentally terrible players. Countless players that have been at Arsenal in recent years could have, and have indeed gone to club's who have that foundation of leadership in the group, and consistency on the field that's allowed them to flourish or at least play to a more consistent/high personal performance. Add in the failures of coaching and tactical development, it only magnifies the existing situation.

 

PEA and Henrick M are on a hiding to nothing really. They won't, and can't change Arsenal into a top four side. The best they can do is try their best not to be dragged down to the base standard that squad are working at.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

They have good individuals, but placed together in a team it’s woeful and massively unbalanced. Fergie once said of Arsenal that he could never compete with them in a football sense, but if he could work harder and fight more they would come out on top, until that invincible team which even he aknowlefed had it all. I’d say we have more leaders and fighters than they do and they could do with a bit of that right now. Again Wenger’s transfer dealings have been awful. It’s OK signing good talented players as individuals, but if they don’t fit the style, model or team, what’s the point? It’s basically a collection of talented players right now who play like strangers and don’t have a clue how to operate against any side that can match them talent wise and even then they are losing to lesser sides. Losing at home in the Europa for example... a low low point.

[Mbemba Youre A Womble]

They have good individuals, but placed together in a team it’s woeful and massively unbalanced. Fergie once said of Arsenal that he could never compete with them in a football sense, but if he could work harder and fight more they would come out on top, until that invincible team which even he aknowlefed had it all. I’d say we have more leaders and fighters than they do and they could do with a bit of that right now. Again Wenger’s transfer dealings have been awful. It’s OK signing good talented players as individuals, but if they don’t fit the style, model or team, what’s the point? It’s basically a collection of talented players right now who play like strangers and don’t have a clue how to operate against any side that can match them talent wise and even then they are losing to lesser sides. Losing at home in the Europa for example... a low low point.

 

Not sure about that at all.. Recon our squad is pretty meek, and the few senior players that are in the squad have shown to be ultimately fairly spineless.

 

Partly that's down to quite a low age across the squad, but that the naivety and mentality of the squad has cost us so far, and I fear might do for us this season in the end.

 

[leffe186]

...Arsenal fans shouldn't be expecting to win the league or even compete for it in all honesty.

 

That's nonsense though - the second part at least. Sure, the money spent by Man City (in particular), Man U and Chelsea has been obscene, but Arsenal are usually third in revenue generated/EBITDA etc etc every year. More importantly, they have been miles ahead of us in almost every facet of money generation for years and years. They really should be competing for the league every year, just like Man U, Man C, Chelsea, and to a lesser extent, Liverpool.

 

All those teams have used a combination of managerial changes and filthy lucre to get themselves out of any recent ruts. Arsenal have ignored the first option, and have erratically and unconvincingly adopted the second. It would be more excusable if us and Liverpool had failed to overtake them, but I think we can all agree that that is precisely what has happened.

[Guest firetotheworks]

and that's a Spurs fan saying that. This whole 'they shouldn't expect.. ' is a symptom of their downfall and not the other way around.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

...Arsenal fans shouldn't be expecting to win the league or even compete for it in all honesty.

 

That's nonsense though - the second part at least. Sure, the money spent by Man City (in particular), Man U and Chelsea has been obscene, but Arsenal are usually third in revenue generated/EBITDA etc etc every year. More importantly, they have been miles ahead of us in almost every facet of money generation for years and years. They really should be competing for the league every year, just like Man U, Man C, Chelsea, and to a lesser extent, Liverpool.

 

All those teams have used a combination of managerial changes and filthy lucre to get themselves out of any recent ruts. Arsenal have ignored the first option, and have erratically and unconvincingly adopted the second. It would be more excusable if us and Liverpool had failed to overtake them, but I think we can all agree that that is precisely what has happened.

and that's a Spurs fan saying that. This whole 'they shouldn't expect.. ' is a symptom of their downfall and not the other way around.

 

This and this.

[leffe186]

I was going to follow up that post two days ago . Finally I get the chance!

 

I checked the league positions over the last 10 years. Every time a big side underperformed - almost without fail - they changed manager. The problem is that Arsenal never had a reallybad season. They kept chugging along in the top four, rarely looking like winning the league but always doing enough. The one time they dropped out of the top four was last year. Other big teams had perfect excuses/opportunities to freshen things up. Arsenal would have had to make a much tougher and less clear-cut decision.

[bigfella]

I was going to follow up that post two days ago . Finally I get the chance!

 

I checked the league positions over the last 10 years. Every time a big side underperformed - almost without fail - they changed manager. The problem is that Arsenal never had a reallybad season. They kept chugging along in the top four, rarely looking like winning the league but always doing enough. The one time they dropped out of the top four was last year. Other big teams had perfect excuses/opportunities to freshen things up. Arsenal would have had to make a much tougher and less clear-cut decision.

 

The other thing is when Arsenal stopped seriously competing for the league, about 6 years ago, they started winning the Cup regularly, which must have kept Wenger in credit with his bosses.

[Mbemba Youre A Womble]

...Arsenal fans shouldn't be expecting to win the league or even compete for it in all honesty.

 

That's nonsense though - the second part at least. Sure, the money spent by Man City (in particular), Man U and Chelsea has been obscene, but Arsenal are usually third in revenue generated/EBITDA etc etc every year. More importantly, they have been miles ahead of us in almost every facet of money generation for years and years. They really should be competing for the league every year, just like Man U, Man C, Chelsea, and to a lesser extent, Liverpool.

 

All those teams have used a combination of managerial changes and filthy lucre to get themselves out of any recent ruts. Arsenal have ignored the first option, and have erratically and unconvincingly adopted the second. It would be more excusable if us and Liverpool had failed to overtake them, but I think we can all agree that that is precisely what has happened.

and that's a Spurs fan saying that. This whole 'they shouldn't expect.. ' is a symptom of their downfall and not the other way around.

 

This and this.

 

There is a difference between 'should be competing' from a financial sense, and 'fans expecting to compete' when it comes to league titles, or even Champions League qualification now.

 

Without looking at financial figures - unless they are so far behind first, second place then yes, they should be competing for titles. That doesn't factor in the sporting aspect of being able to win games, and by extension compete for the title though. League titles aren't given out to those who have the best accountants, or marketing departments. The players that you are paying are entrusted of that duty, but it's as clear as day that the quality, and recent history of Arsenal's players don't put them in a position to compete for titles.

 

At the start of the season, Arsenal fans couldn't, nor shouldn't realistically expect their squad to compete for the title. They can hope, not denying any fan of that. Recent history in the league would show they should have no expectation for the title, they haven't been in such a position come the end of the season for years now.

 

Being a 'big club' is meaningless, and puts you at no starting advantage to win a game of football, let alone a title. Club history, finances, size of stadium all miss the point of the here-and-now situation that they aren't in a position to compete for the PL. Whilst you should always expect, and hope for betterment of your club - fans need to start accepting the reality of the situation. We have, we used to challenge for the title, then it was challenge for top four, then European competition, now we are all hoping that stabilising ourselves as a PL club would constitute success. 

 

Finances aside, as they only paint a half picture - on a purely footballing/sporting aspect - what basis would you have Arsenal down as realistic title contenders?

[leffe186]

Let's ignore the bizarre notion of trying to set aside finances when considering whether a club should be competing for the Premier League. You're not arguing the point. You seem to be saying that Arsenal's squad isn't good enough to challenge for the league. Well, yeah, that's what everyone's saying. The point is that there's no excuse for them to have put themselves in that position.

 

If the squad is deficient in certain positions then that's through poor choices, either poor appraisal of players, conscious focus on - say - attackers rather than defenders, or players seeing underlying problems and not wanting to move to Arsenal. If the squad is poorly-organized then that's a coaching issue. If the squad is poorly motivated then that's a coaching and playing issue. All of these are things that Arsenal have had within their power to address.

 

If I was a fan of Arsenal, Man U, Man C or Chelsea, I would be expecting to challenge for the Premier League every year. That's not a factor of some vague 'big club' notion - it's because my club can choose almost any manager it wants, almost any player it wants, and because I've been challenging for the league for years. Under those circumstances, if I'm not challenging it's because I fucked up - say, I chose Moyes to replace Ferguson, or Hodgson to replace Rafa, or Morata to replace Diego Costa - whatever. I would then expect my team to put that right. Arsenal have consistently failed to put things right over the last two or three years, and that's why fans are pissed.