St James' Park

[HaydnNUFC]

1 minute ago, duo said:

Is that true? I was on the 9 year freeze which expired last season. My season ticket went up season just gone by a couple of hundred.

 

My dad's had his extended so just going off that.

[TheBrownBottle]

17 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

I find it hard to believe that expanding the Gallowgate would come to close to costing anything that a new 65,000 capacity ground would cost. Spurs' ground has cost £1 billion, Everton's is ~£500m, the Emirates cost £390m almost 20 years ago. 

I’m a civils estimator by day - it’s one of the few things in life where I’m reasonably certain on such things.  I don’t find it hard to believe, tbh.  You can’t benchmark any stadium built in London against what it would cost in the NE.  Everton’s proposed design is OTT in terms of expense.  Arsenal’s ground cost c.£400m in 2004; but Leicester’s cost less than 10% of that around the same time, and Man City‘s a quarter of that.  

 

There have been three significant stadiums built in the NE in the last quarter century or so - the SOS, Riverside and George Reynolds Pink Elephant.  Construction cost indices become fairly imprecise going back more than 5-6 years, but there is no chance in hell that construction cost have went up ten fold in 20 years.  Allowing for the right site as low cost of land purchase, then you’d not be looking at anything like the costs you’ve cited.

 

edit: as a quick explanation, latent conditions are the biggest risk generally on civils projects.  The site at Gallowgate is fraught with latent conditions risks - you’re building over a road and a Metro station, on a sloping site where geotechnical investigations are likely next to impossible.  The potential damage to the trains or services underneath is huge.  The engineering solutions to actually build on there - even without those conditions - are nightmarish.  

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by TheBrownBottle

[TheBrownBottle]

A further note on this though; it has to be caveated against what the owners are likely to build.  An ordinary stadium on a reasonably priced greenfield site would be one thing; if they went super shiny deluxe, then of course the cost would skyrocket.  The last football stadium in the UK I was involved with estimating on was Leicester’s when they came up in 2016 - they did some extensive refurbs.  That was pricey …

[Keegans Export]

15 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

I find it hard to believe that expanding the Gallowgate would come to close to costing anything near what a new 65,000 capacity ground would cost. Spurs' ground has cost £1 billion, Everton's is ~£500m, the Emirates cost £390m almost 20 years ago. 

 

 

 

I'm not sure Everton's new stadium is a fair comparison seeing as they're building it on a reclaimed dock - presumably much more complicated and expensive than building on solid, city-centre ground?

[HaydnNUFC]

6 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

I'm not sure Everton's new stadium is a fair comparison seeing as they're building it on a reclaimed dock - presumably much more complicated and expensive than building on solid, city-centre ground?

 

People are wanting a new ground built in what is currently a green space in Leazes Park. Obviously wouldn't be as pricey as reclaiming a dock but work would still have to be done there.

 

14 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’m a civils estimator by day - it’s one of the few things in life where I’m reasonably certain on such things.  I don’t find it hard to believe, tbh.  You can’t benchmark any stadium built in London against what it would cost in the NE.  Everton’s proposed design is OTT in terms of expense.  Arsenal’s ground cost c.£400m in 2004; but Leicester’s cost less than 10% of that around the same time, and Man City‘s a quarter of that.  

 

There have been three significant stadiums built in the NE in the last quarter century or so - the SOS, Riverside and George Reynolds Pink Elephant.  Construction cost indices become fairly imprecise going back more than 5-6 years, but there is no chance in hell that construction cost have went up ten fold in 20 years.  Allowing for the right site as low cost of land purchase, then you’d not be looking at anything like the costs you’ve cited.

 

edit: as a quick explanation, latent conditions are the biggest risk generally on civils projects.  The site at Gallowgate is fraught with latent conditions risks - you’re building over a road and a Metro station, on a sloping site where geotechnical investigations are likely next to impossible.  The potential damage to the trains or services underneath is huge.  The engineering solutions to actually build on there - even without those conditions - are nightmarish.  

 

 

 

 

Fairs, you clearly know what you're talking about.  

 

Just don't want to see us move from SJP. St James metro station is anyway pretty grubby and I imagine hardly ever used. People tend to get off on matchday at Monument, Haymarket and Central I believe? For a drink/scran in town before heading up. Only issue is it's the yellow line's terminus so if St James station was to close you'd have to make changes to Monument station which is extra cost. And I imagine there's no way the station could incorporated into the expansion to some degree?

[TBG]

I'm sure there's logistic reasons behind it, but still feel bad for telling some forrin that St James' Park is only two or three stops away from Gateshead Stadium on the St James' Metro.

 

Had no idea it went via Inverness. Poor lad is probably still on it now. 

[TRon]

While I get the nostalgia argument of staying at St James Park, I do feel kind of peeved that I've only ever been able to buy a season ticket when we were particularly shit. As soon as there's a hint of success, the demand goes through the roof. If we had a 75k ground built at the Leazes and I was actually able to land a season ticket I would get over the nostalgia for the chance to watch a full season of the sort of team we are putting out now.

[Wallsendmag]

2 hours ago, SteV said:

And we’ll still sell the full 8k eventually 

 

Won't even make general sale.

[TheBrownBottle]

13 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

People are wanting a new ground built in what is currently a green space in Leazes Park. Obviously wouldn't be as pricey as reclaiming a dock but work would still have to be done there.

 

 

Fairs, you clearly know what you're talking about.  

 

Just don't want to see us move from SJP. St James metro station is anyway pretty grubby and I imagine hardly ever used. People tend to get off on matchday at Monument, Haymarket and Central I believe? For a drink/scran in town before heading up. Only issue is it's the yellow line's terminus so if St James station was to close you'd have to make changes to Monument station which is extra cost. And I imagine there's no way the station could incorporated into the expansion to some degree?

Yeah, agreed re SJP Metro - closing it and grouting the tunnel would remove one potential obstacle (and would finally end any remaining hope of the Metro being expanded west - a pretty forlorn hope anyway!)

 

It would still be a bastard of a job, even with the station being close.  Given the risks involved in the project, any contractor undertaking the works is unlikely to agree to a fixed price lump sum contract - so in all likelihood the club would be exposed to substantial financial risk once any project to expand is greenlit.  You likely wouldn’t be able to undertake any substantial geotech until the station is closed - which might expose some additional cost risks depending on required piling depths.  The slope at Gallowgate creates the problem of structural height - and you also have Strawberry Place; if the road isn’t able to be permanently closed, you’d need to find an engineering solution to avoid that whilst building structural piles to unknown depths and (assuming the Metro station isn’t closed) avoiding damage to the Metro.

 

It isn’t impossible, of course - but it’s hard to imagine any sensible cost benefit analysis being positive about it.  Our owners do have unbelievable wealth, so it depends on their appetite, of course - but for the cost and risk, if I was their Civils QS I’d be advising them to explore other options. 

[Wallsendmag]

51 minutes ago, duo said:

Is that true? I was on the 9 year freeze which expired last season. My season ticket went up season just gone by a couple of hundred.

 

Aye my dad was the same. His ticket went up quite a bit last summer as his price freeze had expired.

[nufcjb]

You would think our owners, who are building a city from scratch in the fucking desert, would probably know more than some of us about the cost of expanding the Gallowgate or building a new stadium, perhaps in Leazes Park and not anywhere else. 

 

Thing is this. Expanding the Gallowgate would increase the capacity. Yes, there would probably also be some development on the land that was repurchased back and turn it into a fan-zone or something.

 

But our owners are very ambitious people. Building a new stadium up the road, adds more seats (70k perhaps?), corporate boxes will be available, better and modern facilities compared to current SJP, potential to use the stadium for other sports and events like rugby and concerts, be host to major European finals and etc. The list of potential is endless. Of course, in an ideal world, I'd rather they just bulldoze SJP and get a new stadium at the same site but so many logistical issues may arise that just add to the costs.

 

I would not want us to move but can understand why the owners would. what @Toonjam88 shared, Leazes Park sounds like an acceptable site to some fans perhaps should we move? Turn SJP into a park and etc?

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by nufcjb

[TheBrownBottle]

5 minutes ago, nufcjb said:

You would think our owners, who are building a city from scratch in the fucking desert, would probably know more than some of us about the cost of expanding the Gallowgate or building a new stadium, perhaps in Leazes Park and not anywhere else. 

Vanity projects like NEOM expose that they don’t have a clue about construction costs - just that they have a shitload of cash.  I’ve got mates who’ve worked in the construction industry in KSA - believe me, I wouldn’t be looking in that direction for the sharpest minds when it comes to controlling construction costs. 

[nufcjb]

10 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Vanity projects like NEOM expose that they don’t have a clue about construction costs - just that they have a shitload of cash.  I’ve got mates who’ve worked in the construction industry in KSA - believe me, I wouldn’t be looking in that direction for the sharpest minds when it comes to controlling construction costs. 

Understood. So in the end, they would probably just spend whatever they can which ever one they want, extending the Gallowgate or build a new stadium somewhere else.

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by nufcjb

[Doctor Zaius]

21 hours ago, NE27 said:

 

 

Could you be arsed. Sounds wank. 

[bobbydazzla]

21 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Vanity projects like NEOM expose that they don’t have a clue about construction costs - just that they have a shitload of cash.  I’ve got mates who’ve worked in the construction industry in KSA - believe me, I wouldn’t be looking in that direction for the sharpest minds when it comes to controlling construction costs. 

 

I know someone in the thick of things at NEOM, they're a Director in one of the main construction companies who are working for the Saudi's

 

They regularly show me the plans that are being proposed for the buildings and locations.

 

It's wild.

 

Like someone's just taken a load of shrooms, smoked a massive bifta, had a little sniff of some Bostik and then decided to plan what a futuristic city in the desert could look like with costs being taken totally out of the equation.

 

I for one, will welcome our floating stadium with massive escalators to the stands in the clouds.

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by bobbydazzla

[PauloGeordio]

2 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

I know someone in the thick of things at NEOM, they're a Director in one of the main construction companies who are working for the Saudi's

 

They regularly show me the plans that are being proposed for the buildings and locations.

 

It's wild.

 

Like someone's just taken a load of shrooms, smoked a massive bifta, had a little sniff of some Bostik and then decided to plan what a futuristic city in the desert could look like with costs being taken totally out of the equation.

 

I for one, will welcome our floating stadium with massive escalators to the stands in the clouds.

 

 

 

 

[Orphanage]

Leazes Park option the only real solution . It would still be the cathedral on the hill etc 

I reckon though that the fans park with big screens will be as close as we get to a larger capacity ground . Owners want to make £ out of us . Easiest way is keep SJP as is , up the prices 

[timeEd32]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’m a civils estimator by day - it’s one of the few things in life where I’m reasonably certain on such things.  I don’t find it hard to believe, tbh.  You can’t benchmark any stadium built in London against what it would cost in the NE.  Everton’s proposed design is OTT in terms of expense.  Arsenal’s ground cost c.£400m in 2004; but Leicester’s cost less than 10% of that around the same time, and Man City‘s a quarter of that.  

 

There have been three significant stadiums built in the NE in the last quarter century or so - the SOS, Riverside and George Reynolds Pink Elephant.  Construction cost indices become fairly imprecise going back more than 5-6 years, but there is no chance in hell that construction cost have went up ten fold in 20 years.  Allowing for the right site as low cost of land purchase, then you’d not be looking at anything like the costs you’ve cited.

 

edit: as a quick explanation, latent conditions are the biggest risk generally on civils projects.  The site at Gallowgate is fraught with latent conditions risks - you’re building over a road and a Metro station, on a sloping site where geotechnical investigations are likely next to impossible.  The potential damage to the trains or services underneath is huge.  The engineering solutions to actually build on there - even without those conditions - are nightmarish.  

 

 

 

 

If there's one thing I'm confident about it's that if we did build a new stadium the ambition would be to build one of the greatest stadiums in the world, so while a stadium could maybe be built on the cheap that is almost certainly not the approach we'd be taking.

[NWMag]

Leazes park I’d be happy with, it would barely class as moving in terms of location. Seems the best solution for all, near enough the same spot but more seats 

 

Edit: would be pretty neat if they did it in a similar design to the current stadium though so it wasn’t obviously different from the outside

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by NWMag

[Stifler]

7 minutes ago, NWMag said:

Edit: would be pretty neat if they did it in a similar design to the current stadium though so it wasn’t obviously different from the outside

Why? It looks dated as fuck now, if we are to refurbish SJP, then it needs to be reclassified to something better.

[NWMag]

9 minutes ago, Stifler said:

Why? It looks dated as fuck now, if we are to refurbish SJP, then it needs to be reclassified to something better.

Just so it didn’t seem like a brand new stadium I guess, for those who don’t want to move it might be quite nice to retain similar features

[NE27]

Absolutely zero joy with nufc on an alternative seat like.

 

Zero availability in any corporate and strictly no seats available in general sale areas.

 

Offered to join a waiting list, to enter a ballot if any corporate availability arises later in year.

 

Feels a little shan even if they did offer me a move before the season to try and mitigate this, but that was at an additional 400pp cost to the already 1.5k ticket. Plus barracks have had a 30% increase for the coming season so that would be a 1k increase for very little benefit imo.

 

They really aren't allowing any more ST's in general seating like, bastards

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Man, that’s shit, sorry to hear. 
 

Might be one for the trust to raise if a lot of people are being priced out of that area. 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by AyeDubbleYoo

[timeEd32]

That's a very shitty outcome when they are changing the price of your current seats by so much.

[NE27]

1 minute ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Man, that’s shit, sorry to hear. 
 

Might be one for the trust to raise if a lot of people are being priced out of that area. 

 

 

 

 

Too small an area with very few remainin ST holders unfortunately.

 

Played the game and lost I suppose