Jewell: NUFC 'not coming back' for Giles Barnes

[Rich]

Yorkie:

 

(I like this star thing)

 

*You never know, do you? If it was £2m then it's setting a low bar for any increased offers down the line. You're not seeing my point in that we start at £5m then they probably reject anyway and hold out for more money - that tends to be how these sorts of deals work. If we go straight in all guns blazing with a daft offer then we're showing our hand, letting the world know we have crazy money to spend and Derby would most likely be inclined to try and get more out of us. It's surely better to be a closed-book when it comes to transfers, but of course we still need to try anything possible to get the players that the manager thinks we NEED. I think I trust the club more than I trust you and TT, mind, and I'd trust the club more than myself as well. If you think we could tie a deal up for Barnes without clubs being alerted anyway, even if our opening offer was accepted, then you're more naive than I thought as well.

 

** It's just the way you talk financially about players as though you have a handle on what people are worth in today's market. You have a habit in talking as though you're dealing with facts, rather than opinions, which has reduced a great deal, but still prevails on occasion. Case in point:

 

£5/6m for Giles Barnes is an appropriate offer.

 

No "probably", no "I think", it's just that, as though you know best. It makes me laugh.

 

I used to do exactly the same with threads like this from what I remember, until I started to realise that it's a complete waste of time me putting values on players that we're after in the real world, because I have fuck all to do with negotiations and I don't know the full story. People will go for what they are worth, nothing more nothing less, the sooner you realise that the less disappointed you'll inevitably be.

 

*** Woodgate went for what was apparently just over £7m, when you were saying he was worth £4m at the most and most definitely not more than what 'Boro paid for him. Tottenham paid more than that. That is exactly what I'm talking about in the previous paragraph. We apparently bid the same sort of amount, or it might have been more because of us being apparent "local rivals" to 'Boro. You can only categorically say that's too much after he's had his time at Spurs, not before, which you did.

[Guest johnson293]

If it was £2m then it's setting a low bar for any increased offers down the line. You're not seeing my point in that we start at £5m then they probably reject anyway and hold out for more money - that tends to be how these sorts of deals work.

 

I can see what you are saying - I suppose it depends how much we really want him, and how long we'd be prepared to wait - I mean, if the club think/know they can still conclude a deal on deadline day (bid accpeted, talks with player & Medical), they may wait until then to make the improved bid - leaving Derby with less time to reject it to wait for a higher bid.

 

In the meantime, we see if anyone comes in, and whether they bid higher than we are prepared to.

 

But, I suppose Solano travelled to West Ham on the last Deadline day and signed before midnight, so the deals can be sorted in a short space of time, if everything is agreed quick enough.

[Rich]

If it was £2m then it's setting a low bar for any increased offers down the line. You're not seeing my point in that we start at £5m then they probably reject anyway and hold out for more money - that tends to be how these sorts of deals work.

 

I can see what you are saying - I suppose it depends how much we really want him, and how long we'd be prepared to wait - I mean, if the club think/know they can still conclude a deal on deadline day, they may wait until then to make the improved bid - leaving Derby with less time to reject it to wait for a higher bid.

 

In the meantime, we see if anyone comes in, and whether they bid higher than we are prepared to.

 

But, I suppose Solano travelled to West Ham on Deadline day and signed before midnight, so the deals can be sorted in a short space of time, if everything is agreed quick enough.

 

Well said, those are the keys. If nobody else comes in then the ball is definitely in our court, if he is to move then it'll all happen on deadline day when things start getting close. It's all about leverage, and the close of the transfer window is a seriously good time for buying clubs as far as leverage is concerned, that's why so many deals go through at the last minute.

 

It's in Derby's interests to create as much attention in Barnes as possible and to try and fuel a bidding war, if it happens then they've got all the power and they'll make a fortune, if it doesn't and only we're in for him, then this apparently low offer could prove to be a masterstroke and we could get him for less than what some people would expect.

 

There's a lot more to it than just whacking a big bid in, unfortunately.

[Luc]

Makes more sense to get him than Woodgate.

[Wullie]

Now that Barnes knows we're interested, he could make life very uncomfortable for Derby over the next two days, especially if it's true that he's got an attitude about being down at the bottom. His stock is not going to rise any more before the end of the season and he'll know that - this might be his one chance to sign for a club like us for a while.

 

Make any sort of bid public now and they could be forced to sell before the window shuts, sounds better than whacking £6m on the table for a player with a dozen Premiership appearances, none of which he's exactly set the world alight in.

[Yorkie]

Ok then Rich, i apologise for the condescending tone. It's a bit of a shame you think i see myself as a know-it-all, and it's a shame that people are forced to write 'i reckon' or 'i think', just to qualify their statement as opinion. It's a place of opinions, and that's all it is; i don't see myself as having a greater nouse than anyone else on here, especially regarding financial aspects given my lack of experience in the 'real world'. (No doubt one or two goody-goodies round here are privately going "tsk tsk, grumble grumble" at this post.)

 

... You've said all that to me once before a while ago and i took it on board and i'm not half as bad with my posting style as i used to be. Honestly, i'm not!    In my opinion

 

Anyhow, i think i can probably agree with what you are saying in the first asterik (btw, it's just easier to do that than copy out loads of individual quotes), the whole 'closed book' thing. It's probably a sensible way of going about things.

 

In the last asterik though, i'm still not sure i agree with what you say about only judging a player's valuation after they've played for a certain club. Because then, how can you put a value on any player? If you're saying you can only value a player after their performance at a respective club, would you have said he was worth £7-9m after his time at Boro? Every player has his price imo.

[Rich]

Ok then Rich, i apologise for the condescending tone. It's a bit of a shame you think i see myself as a know-it-all, and it's a shame that people are forced to write 'i reckon' or 'i think', just to qualify their statement as opinion. It's a place of opinions, and that's all it is; i don't see myself as having a greater nouse than anyone else on here, especially regarding financial aspects given my lack of experience in the 'real world'. (No doubt one or two goody-goodies round here are privately going "tsk tsk, grumble grumble" at this post.)

 

... You've said all that to me once before a while ago and i took it on board and i'm not half as bad with my posting style as i used to be. Honestly, i'm not!   In my opinion

 

Anyhow, i think i can probably agree with what you are saying in the first asterik (btw, it's just easier to do that than copy out loads of individual quotes), the whole 'closed book' thing. It's probably a sensible way of going about things.

 

In the last asterik though, i'm still not sure i agree with what you say about only judging a player's valuation after they've played for a certain club. Because then, how can you put a value on any player? If you're saying you can only value a player after their performance at a respective club, would you have said he was worth £7-9m after his time at Boro? Every player has his price imo.

 

That's sort of my point, the bold bit, we (as in me and you) can't really value a player because we never know the whole story. The clubs involved are the ones who matter, along with the player himself and the agent, that's why I try to avoid talking values these days. I have my own opinions on value, of course, but they've been proven to be "wrong" so many times by strange deals in the past that I've decided it's best left up to the people who pay and receive the money to decide what a player is worth.

 

There have been many times where I've thought "bargain" or "that's a fucking rip off" only to be proved entirely wrong in the future, which is why when people say "he's worth £5M, no more" it narks me, because it's nowt more than a prediction that they're passing off as fact. A lot is dependent on what the needs of the buying club are positionally, how much the player wants to come, etc. I've said all of that recently, but there are dozens of reasons for a player's price, not all of which the likes of me and you ever know.

 

I understand that everyone has their opinions on what people are worth (most are proven to be fucking wrong, like, as I've said) and that it's part and parcel of football discussion, it doesn't make them any less daft though. I do understand that a lot of people will probably disagree with this philosophy, but it's serving me well. I understand that I'm just a supporter, who has no real say in the grand scheme of what my club does and that I don't know half as much about the game as the people involved at the top levels do, it's why I've become more critical of those who act like they know best all of the time when it comes to formations/signings/values, etc.

 

It's fair enough having an opinion and saying what you'd like to see, but there are many on here who say "do this, do that, play him, drop him, spend this, spend that and THEN things WILL get better" as though they are the fucking oracle of all things football. It's amusing, yet tedious at times.

[biggs]

Going to work now but hope this comes off ,he looks a special player imho and he will surprise a lot of people .

[Yorkie]

I don't know whether you're directly referring to me with that last paragraph, you might not be, but i'm not one of those people. Not at all. Cos it narks me hearing that aswell; i'm not a know-it-all.

 

But i don't know why it bothers you so much. It's an opinion, people are giving opinions. I don't see why the phrasing of certain statements narks you this much. Just because they say "if we play Martins alongside Viduka, he'll get a bundle of goals", it doesn't mean to say they consider themselves the 'oracle of football knowledge'. When posting a post i've often thought "Oo, i'd better put an 'imo' in there just incase someone thinks i'm up my own arse."

 

It's natural, it's just the way people talk.

 

AFAIK.

[Rich]

I don't know whether you're directly referring to me with that last paragraph, you might not be, but i'm not one of those people. Not at all. Cos it narks me hearing that aswell; i'm not a know-it-all.

 

But i don't know why it bothers you so much. It's an opinion, people are giving opinions. I don't see why the phrasing of certain statements narks you this much. Just because they say "if we play Martins alongside Viduka, he'll get a bundle of goals", it doesn't mean to say they consider themselves the 'oracle of football knowledge'.

 

Wasn't referring to you in the last bit, but I'll explain about why it does nark me. Because some people are stupid and say stupid things, on a regular basis, and it gets tiresome (not you). I sometimes come on here to have proper football debates with people who know a bit about our club and about the game and who can construct solid arguments and give as good as they get, other times I'm on here to moderate things first and foremost and other times I'm on here to chill out and waste some of my spare time. As far as the first instance goes, it makes it hard to have a debate with people who's argument is solely something like your quote: "if we play Martins alongside Viduka, he'll get a bundle of goals" because then all I can say to that is: I suppose we'll wait and see. Or I could numb my mind and point out obvious things like service, injuries, the fact that the partnership might not necessarily work, etc. and the comeback will be "it will man, trust me" or something equally worthless.

 

In the second instance it also causes problems, because people saying stuff that objectively (not necessarily just the Martins thing, often stuff a LOT more unrealistic) causes them to get pwned by one of the others, which leads to bother.

 

Aye like you say it's an opinion and some people can't help being daft sometimes, but it's more of a statement than anything else, and usually one that can't be backed up. It's like something you'd hear somebody say in knee-jerk after a game, which is fair enough, but some people have their "opinions" and live and die by them, which is wrong. Nobody is right all of the time, not even Baggio, but he's still right a fair bit.

 

I hope a few people can relate to this, anyway, and that it's not just me. But I do sometimes feel the need to point out to people when they're being crackerjacks, as people have done to me in the past, because otherwise they'll never know, and they'll just be stuck on the "ignore" list (of sorts). You have to at least try and make people see another viewpoint/way of thinking, otherwise we'd just have a forum of people making statements like "if we play Martins alongside Viduka, he'll get a bundle of goals" and this place would be very, very boring indeed. It works both ways, because we all know what people say about opinions.

[Rich]

Anyway, Giles Barnes... apologies folks.

[Willow]

Anyway, Giles Barnes... apologies folks.

 

Aye!

 

he is a ded gud plyer and i hop we get im in, etc....

 

We need top stop fannying about and splash some cash, its not as if we spent a truck load in the summer. Of course I know absolutely nothing about the situation whatsoever but I thought I'd just spout my mouth off in here saying 'Get him in!' and stuff...... 

[Cronky]

Derby have more or less said, up the offer and he's yours. So I think he's coming.

 

This could be as significant as the arrival of Gavin Peacock, Beardsley or Bellamy before. We need someone who can add a bit of zip and unpredicatability to the attack.

 

From what I've seen, the only potential problem with the lad is his attitude. There's no question of his ability.

[lovejoy]

Derby have more or less said, up the offer and he's yours. So I think he's coming.

 

This could be as significant as the arrival of Gavin Peacock, Beardsley or Bellamy before. We need someone who can add a bit of zip and unpredicatability to the attack.

 

From what I've seen, the only potential problem with the lad is his attitude. There's no question of his ability.

 

this

[Baggio]

I wouldn't be getting my hopes up just yet, Bobyule.

[Guest Erich von Manstein]

We need top stop fannying about and splash some cash

 

I think we need to identify our targets and get a reasonable price for them, which is hard to do in today's inflated market.

 

'Splashing the cash' could go drastically wrong and not benefit us at all.

[johnnypd]

looked a good player in the championship, hasn't exactly stood out in a poor derby side since then tho. like baggio says i don't think he'd make a huge impact on the first-team at the moment but could be one for the future.

[Rich]

Suppose we could hope he'd do a Jenas here in his early days. I think he could have a part to play this season.

[Guest Erich von Manstein]

Suppose we could hope he'd do a Jenas here in his early days. I think he could have a part to play this season.

 

Without wanting to start a Jenas flamewar, I thought Jenas was a cracking player for us - I'd be delighted if Barnes became a similar box to box midfielder like him.

[Parky]

Any other clubs in for him?

[Baggio]

Any other clubs in for him?

 

Spurs and West Ham are supposed to have been looking at him but we're the only club to have made an offer.

[toontownman]

Suppose we could hope he'd do a Jenas here in his early days. I think he could have a part to play this season.

 

Without wanting to start a Jenas flamewar, I thought Jenas was a cracking player for us initially - I'd be delighted if Barnes became a similar box to box midfielder like he intially was.

 

Totally agree

[Dave]

How has he rated in other games in the Premier League? Obviously he has shit team-mates like.

[Dokko]

Suppose we could hope he'd do a Jenas here in his early days. I think he could have a part to play this season.

 

Without wanting to start a Jenas flamewar, I thought Jenas was a cracking player for us - I'd be delighted if Barnes became a similar box to box midfielder like him.

 

JJ was ruined by SBR trying to turn him into a DMC. Confused the fuk out of the lad and put him on a downer in terms of form and confidence. The original JJ was a cracking player, you get glimpses now and then at Tottenham, but SBR did a number on him, and Hugo Viana, both never recovered from their experience.

 

 

[johnnypd]

Suppose we could hope he'd do a Jenas here in his early days. I think he could have a part to play this season.

 

Without wanting to start a Jenas flamewar, I thought Jenas was a cracking player for us - I'd be delighted if Barnes became a similar box to box midfielder like him.

 

Jenas was best as an attacking midfielder or out on the right where he didn't have as much defensive or ball-retaining responsibility, but could break into the box and move the ball forward. robson's mistake was trying to mould him as a defensive midfield replacement for speed. he had a (very) little run of form when souness first arrived but then when Dyer got back to fitness he went into his shell again.