Steve McClaren

[STM]

Hey, I'm sure the bloke got potential. I'm being over critical to prove a point.

 

His job gets a lot harder now.

 

So you gonna admit you were wrong then?

 

Since he has a trophy which is all your McClaren argument is based on?

 

I don't even think you know what we're arguing about. McClaren's achieved more than Gourvennec, deal with it.

[Hanshithispantz]

I cannot wrap my head around this at all like

 

We know what we're getting with McClaren, his record in Holland is entirely irrelevant.

[Twinport53]

 

You just don't get it. How can you point to his record, yet ignore McClaren's better achievements?

 

For the last time McClaren's Dutch league win trumps anything he has done. Yet you HATE McClaren and like Gourvennec?

 

Doesn't add up. McClaren's a decent manager, Gourvennec seems to be going places too but he's done nothing to warrant hysteria.

 

I do get it, McClaren is everything that is wrong with the club. Is he better than Pardew and Carver? Yes absolutely. Is he the best we can get? Absolutely not.

 

This was a time for us to strive for better. And taking McClaren based on his 50/50 career of limited success and failure is not a good foundation for future. He's also 11 years older than people like Gourvennec. I would hope he would have gone on to have a better Career in 11 years time than Schteve.

 

I don't hate McClaren, if he was appointed immediately after Pardew left, I personally would have been happy, as he's an upgrade. But not after rejecting us twice and knowing there were better candidates available. It's not good enough, and we shouldn't be accepting it. And pointing back to his success at Boro nearly 10 years ago, is not a positive. Twente was his only recent success, and when he went back a second time, it was a disaster.

[Twinport53]

Hey, I'm sure the bloke got potential. I'm being over critical to prove a point.

 

His job gets a lot harder now.

 

So you gonna admit you were wrong then?

 

Since he has a trophy which is all your McClaren argument is based on?

 

I don't even think you know what we're arguing about. McClaren's achieved more than Gourvennec, deal with it.

 

YOUR argument is based on trophies. Which Gourvennec has achieved one more recently than McClaren.

[STM]

 

You just don't get it. How can you point to his record, yet ignore McClaren's better achievements?

 

For the last time McClaren's Dutch league win trumps anything he has done. Yet you HATE McClaren and like Gourvennec?

 

Doesn't add up. McClaren's a decent manager, Gourvennec seems to be going places too but he's done nothing to warrant hysteria.

 

I do get it, McClaren is everything that is wrong with the club. Is he better than Pardew and Carver? Yes absolutely. Is he the best we can get? Absolutely not.

 

This was a time for us to strive for better. And taking McClaren based on his 50/50 career of limited success and failure is not a good foundation for future. He's also 11 years older than people like Gourvennec. I would hope he would have gone on to have a better Career in 11 years time than Schteve.

 

I don't hate McClaren, if he was appointed immediately after Pardew left, I personally would have been happy, as he's an upgrade. But not after rejecting us twice and knowing there were better candidates available. It's not good enough, and we shouldn't be accepting it. And pointing back to his success at Boro nearly 10 years ago, is not a positive. Twente was his only recent success, and when he went back a second time, it was a disaster.

 

I agree with all of that. I was making a bigger point about the judgement of foreign coaches.

 

Of course I would choose excitement over the mundane.

[STM]

Hey, I'm sure the bloke got potential. I'm being over critical to prove a point.

 

His job gets a lot harder now.

 

So you gonna admit you were wrong then?

 

Since he has a trophy which is all your McClaren argument is based on?

 

I don't even think you know what we're arguing about. McClaren's achieved more than Gourvennec, deal with it.

 

YOUR argument is based on trophies. Which Gourvennec has achieved one more recently than McClaren.

 

No it wasn't. It was about records.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think most of us would have to admit that McClaren is a better manager than we expected to get, in terms of his CV. He's just not as interesting as we wanted or a signal of a real change in approach from the club.

[Twinport53]

If you agree, stop hyping up McClaren then!

 

Also, trophies create and enhance a record. Again Gourvennec' record has the most recent addition.

[Yorkie]

I think most of us would have to admit that McClaren is a better manager than we expected to get, in terms of his CV. He's just not as interesting as we wanted or a signal of a real change in approach from the club.

 

Well I've been expecting McClaren from the moment his name first appeared on the rumour mill.

[STM]

If you agree, stop hyping up McClaren then!

 

Also, trophies create and enhance a record. Again Gourvennec' record has the most recent addition.

 

Trust me. I've no intention of hyping up McClaren. Just trying to provide balance.

 

McClaren might not be as excruciating as some think. Ultimately, the club will fail because of Ashley.

[Hanshithispantz]

What an absolute waste of time this has been.

[TRon]

Being just above average is the worst we could hope for. Best case scenario is a serious manager. Second best case was Carver.

 

If you believe in the scorched earth policy of getting Ashley out then yep, you're right. Not sure everyone failing as quickly as possible is really the answer, but then again I don't know what is.

At 17th we had him squirming on Sky TV. Had we been 11th would we have put the pressure on him?

 

I know what you're saying, I don't disagree really. But he squirmed on TV and then he didn't change his approach at all... or at least not by very much.

 

It's quite hard to muster a debate on this because I don't want Carver, don't have any feelings about McClaren and I have no idea whether relegation would make Ashley more likely to sell. Not sure I can be bothered to form opinions beyond that!

 

This is what I was wondering about: what is the absolute best case for hiring McClaren? For Ashley, and for the fans?

 

Ashley is easy - we know he wants 17th and anything above that is a bonus because of prize money based on league position, but don't place in the Euro spots.

 

But what is the absolute best case scenario for fans with the McClaren appointment? Even with God managing us, we're not going to place in the Champions League (things have changed since Pardew nearly snuck in re squad quality and depth). Winning more than we lose, playing good football - a 90 good minutes on a Saturday here and there - is that as good as it gets for us? If the best case is 6th-8th, are we happy with that if it means Ashley in perpetuity (with all that entails)?

 

Because I'm fond of what has been quaintly described as the "scorched earth" policy - McClaren rejecting us, Carver appointed, consecutive relegations, players refusing to sign for us because there's no soul or heart or even any fucking point to the club - until Ashley jacks it in and we can rebuild from wherever we find ourselves. I think that's a realistic scenario, and better than everything going perfectly for McClaren, doing the absolute best that he can...

 

 

I think our expectations should reflect our status as one of the wealthiest clubs in England. Okay we can't compete with the top 4 or 5 who earn a lot more than us such as Man U, Chelsea, Man City etc, but beyond that we should be able to aim for top 6, a cup win and expect to see some good football. Really that would do me just fine. I'd love it if Ashley suddenly turned into Abramovich and started spending to win the league but obviously that's not going to happen. But at least we should be the next biggest spenders after the top 5 or 6 clubs.

[Twinport53]

If you agree, stop hyping up McClaren then!

 

Also, trophies create and enhance a record. Again Gourvennec' record has the most recent addition.

 

Trust me. I've no intention of hyping up McClaren. Just trying to provide balance.

 

McClaren might not be as excruciating as some think. Ultimately, the club will fail because of Ashley.

 

Again, I would have been pleased had he came in within a month of Pardew leaving, but not now. He's nowt special, and his record isn't going to convince me otherwise.

 

I have slight hope of an improvement in the playing side of things, due to how many players and managers rate his coaching abilities. I have also read the Derby forums and tbh, some say he's turned them from around a 15th and below placed team, to comfortable top 10, whilst playing the best football they have seen since 2007 (am assuming this was their last promotion). Some are gutted he's gone and say he should have been given a 3rd season. And that the speculation surrounding him due to us courting him, along with losing some decent players to injury, ultimately hampered there promotion push. But they still wanted him to stay another season.

 

Others say although he got them playing good football, the fact he never 100% denied our interest our his intention to move, cost them promotion and for that, he deserved the sack.

 

Either way, they almost all agree the football got better. Which is something we can look forward to. However we could have looked forward to better football and a new innovative manager who wanted to prove his worth and push us up a level, and embed us solidly into the top half for good.

 

It's still a missed opportunity for me and others though. And Schteve is the epitome of everything Ashley wants. Subdued hope and belief and an acceptance of mediocrity.

[Hanshithispantz]

Either way, they almost all agree the football got better. Which is something we can look forward to.

 

Not really like, he may not be as depressing to watch as Pardew but my memories of him at Boro certainly didn't include "good attacking football." It's a lot easier to play good football in a league where a decent winger is all you need to slice the opposition open.

[Dinho lad]

His boro spell was ages ago..... he did won them a trophy, ultimately. Yeah they spent a bit of money, but it's quite rare to see clubs win trophies without spending money these days. 

 

What your last sentence all about, btw?

[Twinport53]

Either way, they almost all agree the football got better. Which is something we can look forward to.

 

Not really like, he may not be as depressing to watch as Pardew but my memories of him at Boro certainly didn't include "good attacking football." It's a lot easier to play good football in a league where a decent winger is all you need to slice the opposition open.

 

I understand what your saying and agree with the Boro reference, but when we were down in the championship, we didn't knock the ball about the way Derby try to do. We hoofed it long to Carroll / Shola / Harewood and hoped they knocked it in, our Nolan / Lovenkrands took the knock down.

 

I again, don't like to go against the opinions of fans of other clubs, especially when it's their own club they describe, because we all frankly don't watch Derby enough to form a concrete opinion. So it's one thing I am willing to watch and hopefully see develop. I don't think it will be Arsenal or even Swansea style play, but still.

 

Edit: I know we had Jonas and Jose on LW, but they weren't spectacular towards our general build up play on a week by week basis.

[Hanshithispantz]

His boro spell was ages ago..... he did won them a trophy, ultimately. Yeah they spent a bit of money, but it's quite rare to see clubs win trophies without spending money these days. 

 

What your last sentence all about, btw?

Championship defences are fucking terrible. We signed Wayne Routlege and he pretty much raped the league.

[Wallace]

If you agree, stop hyping up McClaren then!

 

Also, trophies create and enhance a record. Again Gourvennec' record has the most recent addition.

 

Trust me. I've no intention of hyping up McClaren. Just trying to provide balance.

 

McClaren might not be as excruciating as some think. Ultimately, the club will fail because of Ashley.

 

Again, I would have been pleased had he came in within a month of Pardew leaving, but not now. He's nowt special, and his record isn't going to convince me otherwise.

 

I have slight hope of an improvement in the playing side of things, due to how many players and managers rate his coaching abilities. I have also read the Derby forums and tbh, some say he's turned them from around a 15th and below placed team, to comfortable top 10, whilst playing the best football they have seen since 2007 (am assuming this was their last promotion). Some are gutted he's gone and say he should have been given a 3rd season. And that the speculation surrounding him due to us courting him, along with losing some decent players to injury, ultimately hampered there promotion push. But they still wanted him to stay another season.

 

Others say although he got them playing good football, the fact he never 100% denied our interest our his intention to move, cost them promotion and for that, he deserved the sack.

 

Either way, they almost all agree the football got better. Which is something we can look forward to. However we could have looked forward to better football and a new innovative manager who wanted to prove his worth and push us up a level, and embed us solidly into the top half for good.

 

It's still a missed opportunity for me and others though. And Schteve is the epitome of everything Ashley wants. Subdued hope and belief and an acceptance of mediocrity.

 

I'm not convinced he will have us playing good football.  The Premier League for most clubs these days is all about fear of failure so I can see him reverting to negative football as he has done in the past.  It will all be about keeping us in the Premier League.

 

[Raconteur]

Being just above average is the worst we could hope for. Best case scenario is a serious manager. Second best case was Carver.

 

If you believe in the scorched earth policy of getting Ashley out then yep, you're right. Not sure everyone failing as quickly as possible is really the answer, but then again I don't know what is.

At 17th we had him squirming on Sky TV. Had we been 11th would we have put the pressure on him?

 

I know what you're saying, I don't disagree really. But he squirmed on TV and then he didn't change his approach at all... or at least not by very much.

 

It's quite hard to muster a debate on this because I don't want Carver, don't have any feelings about McClaren and I have no idea whether relegation would make Ashley more likely to sell. Not sure I can be bothered to form opinions beyond that!

 

This is what I was wondering about: what is the absolute best case for hiring McClaren? For Ashley, and for the fans?

 

Ashley is easy - we know he wants 17th and anything above that is a bonus because of prize money based on league position, but don't place in the Euro spots.

 

But what is the absolute best case scenario for fans with the McClaren appointment? Even with God managing us, we're not going to place in the Champions League (things have changed since Pardew nearly snuck in re squad quality and depth). Winning more than we lose, playing good football - a 90 good minutes on a Saturday here and there - is that as good as it gets for us? If the best case is 6th-8th, are we happy with that if it means Ashley in perpetuity (with all that entails)?

 

Because I'm fond of what has been quaintly described as the "scorched earth" policy - McClaren rejecting us, Carver appointed, consecutive relegations, players refusing to sign for us because there's no soul or heart or even any fucking point to the club - until Ashley jacks it in and we can rebuild from wherever we find ourselves. I think that's a realistic scenario, and better than everything going perfectly for McClaren, doing the absolute best that he can...

 

 

I think our expectations should reflect our status as one of the wealthiest clubs in England. Okay we can't compete with the top 4 or 5 who earn a lot more than us such as Man U, Chelsea, Man City etc, but beyond that we should be able to aim for top 6, a cup win and expect to see some good football. Really that would do me just fine. I'd love it if Ashley suddenly turned into Abramovich and started spending to win the league but obviously that's not going to happen. But at least we should be the next biggest spenders after the top 5 or 6 clubs.

I guess my point is that what should be happening is not what is going to happen. Ashley is not going to spend a penny more than he has to, moreover he will sell when he can, too. He's appointing a manager and then not only doesn't give him the tools to succeed, but sells off some of the tools he thinks he won't need. The good football and the cup wins - yes, we should aspire to that, but Ashley plain doesn't. That's the point - what is the best that we can reasonably and realistically hope for under (any) Ashley manager?

 

So, within that framework, is McClaren a coach who can achieve good football and cup runs/wins. Probably not. But is Vieira, or Garde, or de Boer or anyone else capable of that, with Ashley tying their hands behind their backs? I don't think anyone could.

 

McClaren might be shit, might be boring, might surprise people by not being shit, but so fucking what? He won't relegate us, and I don't believe anyone can provide the top-six-and-cup-success you(correctly) say we should aspire to. That being the case, I would take crashing and burning in order to get Ashley out over the mediocrity McClaren (or almost any decent manager) can provide

[STM]

I think a where will we finish poll will be interesting.

 

I'd go around 11th.

[Hanshithispantz]

Either way, they almost all agree the football got better. Which is something we can look forward to.

 

Not really like, he may not be as depressing to watch as Pardew but my memories of him at Boro certainly didn't include "good attacking football." It's a lot easier to play good football in a league where a decent winger is all you need to slice the opposition open.

 

I understand what your saying and agree with the Boro reference, but when we were down in the championship, we didn't knock the ball about the way Derby try to do. We hoofed it long to Carroll / Shola / Harewood and hoped they knocked it in, our Nolan / Lovenkrands took the knock down.

 

I again, don't like to go against the opinions of fans of other clubs, especially when it's their own club they describe, because we all frankly don't watch Derby enough to form a concrete opinion. So it's one thing I am willing to watch and hopefully see develop. I don't think it will be Arsenal or even Swansea style play, but still.

 

Edit: I know we had Jonas and Jose on LW, but they weren't spectacular towards our general build up play on a week by week basis.

I've said it before like but I've not even watched Derby play under him, I'm just not too convinced them playing good football in the Championship will carry over to us in the Premiership.

[Twinport53]

I'm not convinced he will have us playing good football.  The Premier League for most clubs these days is all about fear of failure so I can see him reverting to negative football as he has done in the past.  It will all be about keeping us in the Premier League.

 

I think he 'might' give it a try, due to him convincing himself he is a European tested and educated manager, which he hadn't experienced yet at Boro. But once we take a couple of hammerings, he will revert to type. Hopefully he doesn't mention "back to basics"

[Parky]

Ultimately it won't really be about McClaren but investment in the squad. That will be the real statement of intentions.

[Deckard 13]

I think a where will we finish poll will be interesting.

 

I'd go around 11th.

 

As of today, 18th. Even if we recruit well I doubt we'll trouble the top 10 because I'll think as always well buy decent players but the wrong players.

[Twinport53]

I think a where will we finish poll will be interesting.

 

I'd go around 11th.

 

I roughly agree, around 10th - 13th for me.

 

Either way, they almost all agree the football got better. Which is something we can look forward to.

 

Not really like, he may not be as depressing to watch as Pardew but my memories of him at Boro certainly didn't include "good attacking football." It's a lot easier to play good football in a league where a decent winger is all you need to slice the opposition open.

 

I understand what your saying and agree with the Boro reference, but when we were down in the championship, we didn't knock the ball about the way Derby try to do. We hoofed it long to Carroll / Shola / Harewood and hoped they knocked it in, our Nolan / Lovenkrands took the knock down.

 

I again, don't like to go against the opinions of fans of other clubs, especially when it's their own club they describe, because we all frankly don't watch Derby enough to form a concrete opinion. So it's one thing I am willing to watch and hopefully see develop. I don't think it will be Arsenal or even Swansea style play, but still.

 

Edit: I know we had Jonas and Jose on LW, but they weren't spectacular towards our general build up play on a week by week basis.

I've said it before like but I've not even watched Derby play under him, I'm just not too convinced them playing good football in the Championship will carry over to us in the Premiership.

 

There is zero certainty that it will even come close. But one think is for sure, it won't have materialised under Pardew. And that is literally my only positive for McClaren from what I have dug up so far. I don't care for his success and failure anymore, because it was either to long ago, or I don't truly know the meaning behind it all e.g. Nottingham Forest failings.

 

I just want to see some change, unfortunately McClaren won't bring about enough of it.