The Liverpool Thread

[BlueStar]

I don't understand who actually buys it?  Who buys physical papers anymore?  And surely no-one pays to view their website behind a paywall?

[Ketsbaia]

I don't get why, when facing a raft of newspapers in a shop, somebody would choose The Sun.

[summerof69]

People I work with read the sun, unfortunately. there's always one or two laying around in the canteen. Think the price and tits might have something to do with it.

[newsted]

I don't get why, when facing a raft of newspapers in a shop, somebody would choose The Sun.

 

People can be fucking idiots, man. I wish they would stop it, but they won't. People a recurring theme.

[timeEd32]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

A long read but some shocking revelations in there.

 

 

Found that so difficult to get through.

 

So f***ing sad.

 

It really is. Some of the imagery is almost too much to take. I can't imagine attending a sporting event and being crushed to death. Children involved no less.

[Deuce]

Justice 96 Parky 0  imo

 

brutal

[Ally]

Nothing on the front of The Times either

[cp40]

I don't understand who actually buys it?  Who buys physical papers anymore?  And surely no-one pays to view their website behind a paywall?

 

 

builders?

[Incognito]

One bloke buys it at my work. He is a Tory through and through and likes to point out the benefits cheat and the dirty forrin stories.

[Guest neesy111]

Imagine going through this, followed by 27 years of lies and smears.

 

Disgusting.

 

At the gymnasium, families were made to queue outside in the cold, clear night, then eventually brought in and told to look through Polaroid photographs of all those who died, not grouped by age or gender. Families whose loved ones had bus passes or other identifying documents on them were also made to go through this process. When their dead relatives were brought out to them, they were in those body bags. Several parents testified that they were told they could not hold or kiss their dead children because they were “the property of the coroner”.

 

Dr Stefan Popper, the coroner, who approved the arrangements, ordered blood samples to be taken from all victims and tested for alcohol – even the children, including Jon-Paul Gilhooley, the youngest, aged 10. It has now been revealed that some people lying injured in hospital also had their blood taken and tested for alcohol. Popper has never fully explained why he decided it was appropriate to take and test people’s blood.

 

Jesus christ man.

[Wullie]

I don't understand who actually buys it?  Who buys physical papers anymore?  And surely no-one pays to view their website behind a paywall?

 

They've turned off the paywall now, presumably for exactly that reason.

[Big Geordie]

Another Tory arsehole. Check this out;

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/hillsborough-inquest-brian-coleman-pointless-accidents-happen_uk_571fd19ee4b0a1e971ca9944

 

[Shak]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

A long read but some shocking revelations in there.

 

 

Found that so difficult to get through.

 

So f***ing sad.

 

It really is. Some of the imagery is almost too much to take. I can't imagine attending a sporting event and being crushed to death. Children involved no less.

 

This sends fucking shivers down my spine.

 

'A police constable, Andrew Eddison, who went into the pens to pull people out, said in his statement that “everybody had urinated themselves” and defecated, and that vomit swirled over the bodies and around his feet. There were two piles of bodies at the front, and Eddison said a hand at the bottom of one was pulling at his trouser leg. Once the bodies were finally cleared, it turned out to be a child.'

 

 

Reading his statement, by the time they pulled people off the pile to get to the child he'd died. So, so awful.

[Big Geordie]

:( Awful.

[GM]

Did anyone else see this on Channel 4 last night? Kelvin McKenzie, former Sun editor, getting a large portion of the very nasty journalism he served up in the 80s. Poetically beautiful stuff. Enjoy.

 

[Incognito]

Those metal stanchion things that used to be on every standing area at grounds didn't half hurt when you crashed into one after a surge, I'm  certain they played a part in some of the fatalities.

[Wallace]

Happy they have got their peace.

 

To be honest though - to exonarate Liverpool fans of ALL blame is hard to accept. Loads of them turned up without tickets and attempted to get into the stadium (most did). That is a fact.

 

So yes, ultimately the actions of the police and how they worked that game caused the deaths of so many fans, however, had the ticketless fans not.turned up and tried/got into the stadium, then elements and the huge scale of the disaster could have been avoided.

 

Police were primarily to blame but there.is no way you can say Liverpool fans played absolutely no part of it at all.

 

Is it? Genuine question. Obviously there's going to be one or two, but as NJS implies, you can't just say there were 'loads' without a source and use that as some sort of excuse to point blame at the fans, unless it's an extremely large scale issue.

 

It's similar to when the police tried to use alcohol as an excuse - yes you're going to have drunk people at a football match. How many of us that have travelled away can claim we've never gone into a ground at least fairly p*ssed? A minority I would imagine,  but that's not the same as saying that if we'd been crushed to death at any of those matches, it would have been our fault. The police know some people at a football match will be drunk. It's part of the reason they are there, and they're supposed to deal with the issue in a sensible and fair manner. That goes for football matches in the same way it goes for concert, festivals, whatever.

 

Thought the point in the David Conn article in the Guardian about local bins being half full, and mainly containing empty cans of Vimto was very pertinent.

 

Whether there were ticketless fans present or not is not the point - it still comes down to inept policing on the day.  The fans did not force the gate as was said at the time - it was the police decision to open it which led to the subsequent events.

[sbnufc]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

[Si]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

Read the Gaurdian Article it explains it all really well.

[wacko]

Those metal stanchion things that used to be on every standing area at grounds didn't half hurt when you crashed into one after a surge, I'm  certain they played a part in some of the fatalities.

 

They did, largely by giving way

 

Their purpose is to prevent massive crushes by creating smaller ones.

[wacko]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

 

Yes. The problem was, due to the stadium design (you couldn't see into the stand from the tunnel), everyone surging in (so as not to miss kick-off) went straight down the tunnel into the 2 central pens, which were already full, instead of into the pens to either side, where there was room. You can see here how there's plenty of room in the pen closest to the camera:

 

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FAF9/production/_86094246_lepp.jpg

 

Before opening the gate, the police should have closed off the tunnel to the central pens and directed the incoming fans to the pens to either side.

 

This was the normal procedure under the previous game commander, but Duckenfield had never commanded a game at Hillsborough before and didn't know what he was doing.

 

There was certainly some inherent danger in the stadium due to bad design and crumbling crush barriers, but mostly the disaster was caused by a whole series of bad decisions by the police. And when people started dying, many of the police actively hindered attempt to help. They pushed people trying to escape back into the pens. They wouldn't let ambulances into the ground. They arrested people tearing down hoardings to use as stretchers.

 

Many of the victims weren't taken to hospital. They were dumped in a gym without medical attention and left to die, while coppers stood around stuffing their faces with fried chicken.

 

Literally while people were still being crushed to death, the police started their cover-up and smear campaign.

[sbnufc]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

 

Yes. The problem was, due to the stadium design (you couldn't see into the stand from the tunnel), everyone surging in (so as not to miss kick-off) went straight down the tunnel into the 2 central pens, which were already full, instead of into the pens to either side, where there was room. You can see here how there's plenty of room in the pen closest to the camera:

 

 

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FAF9/production/_86094246_lepp.jpg

 

 

Before opening the gate, the police should have closed off the tunnel to the central pens and directed the incoming fans to the pens to either side.

 

This was the normal procedure under the previous game commander, but Duckenfield had never commanded a game at Hillsborough before and didn't know what he was doing.

 

There was certainly some inherent danger in the stadium due to bad design and crumbling crush barriers, but mostly the disaster was caused by a whole series of bad decisions by the police. And when people started dying, many of the police actively hindered attempt to help. They pushed people trying to escape back into the pens. They wouldn't let ambulances into the ground. They arrested people tearing down hoardings to use as stretchers.

 

Many of the victims weren't taken to hospital. They were dumped in a gym without medical attention and left to die, while coppers stood around stuffing their faces with fried chicken.

 

Literally while people were still being crushed to death, the police started their cover-up and smear campaign.

 

Yeah I know (more or less) what happened inside and that fans not being directed to the side pens was more of a factor than the gate being opened, but I was just wondering if opening the gate was absolutely necessary? Would it have been possible for a crush outside? If yes, what was the reason for that?

[bigfella]

Another factor IIRC,  was the previous year's semi at Hillsborough was between the same two teams, but that year the Liverpool fans had the bigger opposite Kop stand,  the same end we had in '74. It's a long time since I've been to Hillsborough, so I don't recall the street layout outside, but I'm sure it made more sense logistically having the Liverpool fans at the other end.

[wacko]

Yeah I know (more or less) what happened inside and that fans not being directed to the side pens was more of a factor than the gate being opened, but I was just wondering if opening the gate was absolutely necessary? Would it have been possible for a crush outside? If yes, what was the reason for that?

 

Who knows for sure? AFAIK, the decision to open the gate wasn't criticised, just the failure to usher the incoming fans into the side pens after doing so.

 

[Si]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

 

Yes. The problem was, due to the stadium design (you couldn't see into the stand from the tunnel), everyone surging in (so as not to miss kick-off) went straight down the tunnel into the 2 central pens, which were already full, instead of into the pens to either side, where there was room. You can see here how there's plenty of room in the pen closest to the camera:

 

 

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FAF9/production/_86094246_lepp.jpg

 

 

Before opening the gate, the police should have closed off the tunnel to the central pens and directed the incoming fans to the pens to either side.

 

This was the normal procedure under the previous game commander, but Duckenfield had never commanded a game at Hillsborough before and didn't know what he was doing.

 

There was certainly some inherent danger in the stadium due to bad design and crumbling crush barriers, but mostly the disaster was caused by a whole series of bad decisions by the police. And when people started dying, many of the police actively hindered attempt to help. They pushed people trying to escape back into the pens. They wouldn't let ambulances into the ground. They arrested people tearing down hoardings to use as stretchers.

 

Many of the victims weren't taken to hospital. They were dumped in a gym without medical attention and left to die, while coppers stood around stuffing their faces with fried chicken.

 

Literally while people were still being crushed to death, the police started their cover-up and smear campaign.

 

Yeah I know (more or less) what happened inside and that fans not being directed to the side pens was more of a factor than the gate being opened, but I was just wondering if opening the gate was absolutely necessary? Would it have been possible for a crush outside? If yes, what was the reason for that?

Because the police weren't managing the flow of people into that area due to the inexperience of the guy in charge. Previous years they done it before as it was a known risk but the new commander hadn't reviewed the risks properly prior to the game. It's all in the Gaurdian  article.