The Liverpool Thread

[Wallace]

Happy they have got their peace.

 

To be honest though - to exonarate Liverpool fans of ALL blame is hard to accept. Loads of them turned up without tickets and attempted to get into the stadium (most did). That is a fact.

 

So yes, ultimately the actions of the police and how they worked that game caused the deaths of so many fans, however, had the ticketless fans not.turned up and tried/got into the stadium, then elements and the huge scale of the disaster could have been avoided.

 

Police were primarily to blame but there.is no way you can say Liverpool fans played absolutely no part of it at all.

 

Is it? Genuine question. Obviously there's going to be one or two, but as NJS implies, you can't just say there were 'loads' without a source and use that as some sort of excuse to point blame at the fans, unless it's an extremely large scale issue.

 

It's similar to when the police tried to use alcohol as an excuse - yes you're going to have drunk people at a football match. How many of us that have travelled away can claim we've never gone into a ground at least fairly p*ssed? A minority I would imagine,  but that's not the same as saying that if we'd been crushed to death at any of those matches, it would have been our fault. The police know some people at a football match will be drunk. It's part of the reason they are there, and they're supposed to deal with the issue in a sensible and fair manner. That goes for football matches in the same way it goes for concert, festivals, whatever.

 

Thought the point in the David Conn article in the Guardian about local bins being half full, and mainly containing empty cans of Vimto was very pertinent.

 

Whether there were ticketless fans present or not is not the point - it still comes down to inept policing on the day.  The fans did not force the gate as was said at the time - it was the police decision to open it which led to the subsequent events.

[sbnufc]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

[Si]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

Read the Gaurdian Article it explains it all really well.

[wacko]

Those metal stanchion things that used to be on every standing area at grounds didn't half hurt when you crashed into one after a surge, I'm  certain they played a part in some of the fatalities.

 

They did, largely by giving way

 

Their purpose is to prevent massive crushes by creating smaller ones.

[wacko]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

 

Yes. The problem was, due to the stadium design (you couldn't see into the stand from the tunnel), everyone surging in (so as not to miss kick-off) went straight down the tunnel into the 2 central pens, which were already full, instead of into the pens to either side, where there was room. You can see here how there's plenty of room in the pen closest to the camera:

 

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FAF9/production/_86094246_lepp.jpg

 

Before opening the gate, the police should have closed off the tunnel to the central pens and directed the incoming fans to the pens to either side.

 

This was the normal procedure under the previous game commander, but Duckenfield had never commanded a game at Hillsborough before and didn't know what he was doing.

 

There was certainly some inherent danger in the stadium due to bad design and crumbling crush barriers, but mostly the disaster was caused by a whole series of bad decisions by the police. And when people started dying, many of the police actively hindered attempt to help. They pushed people trying to escape back into the pens. They wouldn't let ambulances into the ground. They arrested people tearing down hoardings to use as stretchers.

 

Many of the victims weren't taken to hospital. They were dumped in a gym without medical attention and left to die, while coppers stood around stuffing their faces with fried chicken.

 

Literally while people were still being crushed to death, the police started their cover-up and smear campaign.

[sbnufc]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

 

Yes. The problem was, due to the stadium design (you couldn't see into the stand from the tunnel), everyone surging in (so as not to miss kick-off) went straight down the tunnel into the 2 central pens, which were already full, instead of into the pens to either side, where there was room. You can see here how there's plenty of room in the pen closest to the camera:

 

 

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FAF9/production/_86094246_lepp.jpg

 

 

Before opening the gate, the police should have closed off the tunnel to the central pens and directed the incoming fans to the pens to either side.

 

This was the normal procedure under the previous game commander, but Duckenfield had never commanded a game at Hillsborough before and didn't know what he was doing.

 

There was certainly some inherent danger in the stadium due to bad design and crumbling crush barriers, but mostly the disaster was caused by a whole series of bad decisions by the police. And when people started dying, many of the police actively hindered attempt to help. They pushed people trying to escape back into the pens. They wouldn't let ambulances into the ground. They arrested people tearing down hoardings to use as stretchers.

 

Many of the victims weren't taken to hospital. They were dumped in a gym without medical attention and left to die, while coppers stood around stuffing their faces with fried chicken.

 

Literally while people were still being crushed to death, the police started their cover-up and smear campaign.

 

Yeah I know (more or less) what happened inside and that fans not being directed to the side pens was more of a factor than the gate being opened, but I was just wondering if opening the gate was absolutely necessary? Would it have been possible for a crush outside? If yes, what was the reason for that?

[bigfella]

Another factor IIRC,  was the previous year's semi at Hillsborough was between the same two teams, but that year the Liverpool fans had the bigger opposite Kop stand,  the same end we had in '74. It's a long time since I've been to Hillsborough, so I don't recall the street layout outside, but I'm sure it made more sense logistically having the Liverpool fans at the other end.

[wacko]

Yeah I know (more or less) what happened inside and that fans not being directed to the side pens was more of a factor than the gate being opened, but I was just wondering if opening the gate was absolutely necessary? Would it have been possible for a crush outside? If yes, what was the reason for that?

 

Who knows for sure? AFAIK, the decision to open the gate wasn't criticised, just the failure to usher the incoming fans into the side pens after doing so.

 

[Si]

I don't know many of the facts, but what would have happened had they left the gate shut? Am I right in thinking the police opened it because of fear of a crush outside?

 

Yes. The problem was, due to the stadium design (you couldn't see into the stand from the tunnel), everyone surging in (so as not to miss kick-off) went straight down the tunnel into the 2 central pens, which were already full, instead of into the pens to either side, where there was room. You can see here how there's plenty of room in the pen closest to the camera:

 

 

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/FAF9/production/_86094246_lepp.jpg

 

 

Before opening the gate, the police should have closed off the tunnel to the central pens and directed the incoming fans to the pens to either side.

 

This was the normal procedure under the previous game commander, but Duckenfield had never commanded a game at Hillsborough before and didn't know what he was doing.

 

There was certainly some inherent danger in the stadium due to bad design and crumbling crush barriers, but mostly the disaster was caused by a whole series of bad decisions by the police. And when people started dying, many of the police actively hindered attempt to help. They pushed people trying to escape back into the pens. They wouldn't let ambulances into the ground. They arrested people tearing down hoardings to use as stretchers.

 

Many of the victims weren't taken to hospital. They were dumped in a gym without medical attention and left to die, while coppers stood around stuffing their faces with fried chicken.

 

Literally while people were still being crushed to death, the police started their cover-up and smear campaign.

 

Yeah I know (more or less) what happened inside and that fans not being directed to the side pens was more of a factor than the gate being opened, but I was just wondering if opening the gate was absolutely necessary? Would it have been possible for a crush outside? If yes, what was the reason for that?

Because the police weren't managing the flow of people into that area due to the inexperience of the guy in charge. Previous years they done it before as it was a known risk but the new commander hadn't reviewed the risks properly prior to the game. It's all in the Gaurdian  article.

[sbnufc]

Ah, got ya

[Tsunami]

Another factor IIRC,  was the previous year's semi at Hillsborough was between the same two teams, but that year the Liverpool fans had the bigger opposite Kop stand,  the same end we had in '74. It's a long time since I've been to Hillsborough, so I don't recall the street layout outside, but I'm sure it made more sense logistically having the Liverpool fans at the other end.

 

They had the same ends and there's plenty of Lpool fans who say that lessons were not learnt or passed on as there were some of the issues in the '88 game as well. There's speculation that Duckenfield was given the role just before the SYP's biggest event of the year as a public smack in the face to the bloke he replaced (he'd been held accountable for a trick played by some coppers on a new recruit). It's madness to think that but for a prank all this may have been avoided.

[Figures 1-0 Football]

Mamadou Sakho has decided not to challenge the results of his failed drugs test and is not expected to play for Liverpool again this season.

 

Sakho, 26, tested positive for what is thought to be a type of fat burner after the Europa League win against Manchester United 17 March.

 

He had until Tuesday to request a test of his B sample, but opted not to.

 

Silly silly boy. Is it a 7-9 month ban usually for stuff like this?

[Andymc1]

Mamadou Sakho has decided not to challenge the results of his failed drugs test and is not expected to play for Liverpool again this season.

 

Sakho, 26, tested positive for what is thought to be a type of fat burner after the Europa League win against Manchester United 17 March.

 

He had until Tuesday to request a test of his B sample, but opted not to.

 

Silly silly boy. Is it a 7-9 month ban usually for stuff like this?

 

Kolo Toure got 6 month if I remember rightly.

[Big Geordie]

 

[frankpingel]

Watching BBC Breakfast News and they made a point of showing the front page of this morning's Sun as it didn't consider this newsworthy. Apparently it's mentioned on page 5.

[Wullie]

Times as well, who then changed it for a second edition. One of their writers, Tony Barrett, seemed extremely unhappy about it on Twitter.

[Incognito]

As I was dragged to the entire FA Cup run that Coventry City had in 1987, as a good luck charm by mates, I experienced both ends of Hillsborough. It was awful at the Leppings Lane end and I'm amazed that nothing on the scale of what happened to the Liverpool supporters had happened before. To be honest, it was quite bad in their big Kop too, but none worse than the Victoria Ground, where 8000 Cov fans were put in the middle section behind the goal, instead of the whole of the end, like what happened at Hillsborough to the Liverpool fans. It was fucking horrible when Coventry scored, because the surges came from all directions, and there literally was nowhere to go.

[Wullie]

http://www.football365.com/news/the-sun-and-the-times-fourteen-questions

[Guest firetotheworks]

That Guardian article, particularly the bit about the dad trying to save both of his daughters was awful, but well worth reading.

[Belfast Boy]

Is there no comeback on Liverpool as a team ref the failed drug test? You cant imagine Dortmund are too happy to learn one of the guys who scored late on to knock them out was using illegal drugs.

[NEEJ]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

A long read but some shocking revelations in there.

 

Welled up at the end of that. Heartbreaking, angering stuff.

[Wallace]

Is there no comeback on Liverpool as a team ref the failed drug test? You cant imagine Dortmund are too happy to learn one of the guys who scored late on to knock them out was using illegal drugs.

 

No.  The club are only penalised if 2 or more players fail a drugs test.  It is assumed if it is a single player that he has probably acted without the club's knowledge.  More than one player, then it could be down to the club.

 

 

[Disco]

He'll miss the Euros in his home country n all. Probably the highlight of his career. Daft lad.

[Big Geordie]

Andy Burnham's speech in Parliament today;

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/andy-burnhams-damning-hillsborough-speech-7845019#ICID=sharebar_twitter

 

[Big Geordie]

James O'Brien from LBC aims both barrels at Kelvin Mackenzie, Bernard Ingham and Rupert Murdoch;

 

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/10153940001171558/