Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Tooj]

Maradona and Messi have in common this exceptional change of pace and change of direction that allows them to go past opponents - and stay past them - in situations which would defeat all other players. Messi in particular seems to be able to get through the tiniest of gaps in a defence.

 

Wenger has pointed out that what marks Messi out even more is his temperament. He always seems to be 100% focused on the game and his contribution to the team. He never seems to lose his temper, get discouraged, show off, criticise his team mates etc - all the possible pitfalls for the star player.

 

 

[Tooj]

Zidane was better than both Eusebio and Zico.

 

IMO Zidane wasn't better than Zico.

[Disco]

The Keegler has 2 Ballon D'or titles and 2nd place to his name. [/legend]

[Zero]

Both Ronaldo and Ronaldinho at their peak were better than Zidane imo.

 

Agree with that.  Messi below Zidane, still.

 

I think the best comparison I can find for Messi NOW is Ronaldo during his time at Barca.  Both unstoppable, won Ballon D'or but is yet to win a WC on his own. 

[Flip]

Zidane was better than both Eusebio and Zico.

 

IMO Zidane wasn't better than Zico.

 

Agreed, and not because I'm Brazilian, I'm actually a huge fan of Zidane. But Zico was just deadly from anywhere. He was an attacking midfielder who scored goals for fun. He finished 2nd in the top scorer behind Platini in his first season in the Serie A but played about 5 games less than Platini in that season too. He helped Udinese grow as a club. A playmaker who would score goals all day long, after all in his first season he scored 19 in 24 for Udinese while Maradona scored 14 in 30 for Napoli. Not comparing them two, but says a lot about his goalscoring abilities. Not once did Maradona score more league goals in the Serie A or La Liga than Zico did in his first season in the Serie A.

 

Also Zico scored 52 goals in the national team in 72 matches. Maradona scored 34 in 91. Zico is very underrated for a single reason, never won the World Cup and same will go for Messi. He better win it if he wants to be remembered up there with the greats. Messi needs it to at least be close to earn the same respect as Diego Armando Maradona earned in Argentina.

[henke]

I fully expect a tiger woods style fall from grace from Messi. They'll find him on all fours on a travellodge bedroom floor, with a hooer blowing coke up his arse. This season will be his peak, you heard it here first.

[Incognito]

Zidane was better than both Eusebio and Zico.

 

IMO Zidane wasn't better than Zico.

 

Agreed, and not because I'm Brazilian, I'm actually a huge fan of Zidane. But Zico was just deadly from anywhere. He was an attacking midfielder who scored goals for fun. He finished 2nd in the top scorer behind Platini in his first season in the Serie A but played about 5 games less than Platini in that season too. He helped Udinese grow as a club. A playmaker who would score goals all day long, after all in his first season he scored 19 in 24 for Udinese while Maradona scored 14 in 30 for Napoli. Not comparing them two, but says a lot about his goalscoring abilities. Not once did Maradona score more league goals in the Serie A or La Liga than Zico did in his first season in the Serie A.

 

Also Zico scored 52 goals in the national team in 72 matches. Maradona scored 34 in 91. Zico is very underrated for a single reason, never won the World Cup and same will go for Messi. He better win it if he wants to be remembered up there with the greats. Messi needs it to at least be close to earn the same respect as Diego Armando Maradona earned in Argentina.

 

Zico flattered to deceive in World Cups,imo.All 3 of them indeed.

[Village Idiot]

Zidane wasn't even that great in 2006. His performance against Brazil was class, but he didn't have a superb tournament overall.

 

It all started in the last 16 against Spain. Was immense from there on.

 

He also had a quite terrible club season.

 

I think of Zidane as a big game player. He indeed delivered the goods immensely on the biggest stages, but across a season I'd say that Ronaldinho and Ronaldo were more consistent at their peaks. Ronaldo did it on the WCs too.

 

Messi can be immense when he's 26-27 if he doesn't burn out. Add experience and improved decision-making to his ability (and he's starting to show how good a playmaker he can be already) and he should be something to behold.

[Si]

Would love someone to splash the cash and bring him to England. Know there's prob much chance of it happening but Messi on MOTD week in week out would be 

[midds]

Would love someone to splash the cash and bring him to England. Know there's prob much chance of it happening but Messi on MOTD week in week out would be 

 

Just watch Revista.

[Cajun]

Would love someone to splash the cash and bring him to England. Know there's prob much chance of it happening but Messi on MOTD week in week out would be 

 

Would you really want Messi at Man City?

[RupertCommunicator]

Would love someone to splash the cash and bring him to England. Know there's prob much chance of it happening but Messi on MOTD week in week out would be 

 

Would you really want Messi at Man City?

 

I'm sure he would thrive playing in the World's most defensive midfield ever!

[tmonkey]

Zidane at his best from about 99 till 2004 was brilliant in nearly every game he played in. Personally I don't think a direct comparison between him and Messi works because they were/are so different. It's like comparing Xavi and Messi, apples and oranges, i.e. two distinctly different players, because of the way they played and the roles they had in their respective teams.

 

Much of the brilliance of Zidane, like Xavi, came in the middle of the park, or in nothing areas out wide, where you could really appreciate his touch, control, ability to trick the opposition/change direction, and vision/passing ability. At his core, he was a great teamplayer who could turn a tight situation where nothing was happening into a teammate (fullback, striker, etc) running with the ball clean through into space or in on goal. This style is primarily what made him arguably the best player in modern times at performing in the big games at the highest levels - he thrived on being closed down quickly, man marked, trailed, etc, as it meant he could drift and then create space for others. Arguably the only downside with him was that he could drift in and out of matches, but the fact that he could top this play off with amazing technical ability in the final end (with both feet), resulting in great goals scored from all kinds of angles and ranges and brilliantly weighted through balls/crosses/free kicks/etc, makes him an all time great imo. The stats might not back it up, but he really was the perfect big game player.

 

Regarding Messi, he is obviously the best player of this generation and is exceptional on a week in, week out basis, and probably the most effective individual attacking player ever at club level. However, I think there are a few issues to consider with him.

 

Firstly, I think he can be read and can be marked out of games. He struggled last year against Inter, who shut him out completely, he struggled the year before against Chelsea (and in the final against ManU). In those games he was up against players who read him easily, kept up with him, teams organised enough to double up effectively, and generally reduced him to cameo appearances almost. He regularly struggles at international level too where he looks nothing like the player he is for Barca every other week. In short, I think there are some teams with world class defensive players who can deal with him, and a whole bunch of others who can't - how good he looks depends on who he's up against. If he had to play Chelsea or Germany every week, he'd probably have a good game every five or six times with quiet games making up the rest. If he had to play Madrid or Arsenal every week, he'd run riot. I think this season, without there being an international competition, will be one where he does the latter and just rapes everyone, maybe even ManU in the CL Final give how s*** they've looked, but the point still stands - he's very much "stoppable".

 

Secondly, leading on from the first point, I think he's a tad one dimensional and overrated in areas outside of his direct dirbbling/scoring. I've not seen him put a good cross in in ages, and although some might argue that's because he doesn't need to, I can't help but think it's probably because he's just not very good at them. Same applies for free kicks and set pieces, they're not his forté (unlike Maradona). His through balls are highly overrated, he usually gets the weighting wrong and even then it's usually the same old 90 degree angled slide rule that he keeps trying. His passing range and vision in general are very limited - when you watch Barcelona play most of the time it's Xavi playing a wonderfully weighted curling through ball, never Messi. I think this is why he tends to be so quiet/anonymous for Argentina and in those few disappointing big games he's had in the CL - if he can't dribble at will past a team, he'll not do much else other than a very basic pass-n-move game. Similarly, although his finishing is excellent, he's not a player who'll be scoring from outside the box too often, nor would I expect him to be scoring awkwardly acrobatic goals anytime soon (can't ever see him scoring that Zidane volley for example on his left foot, let alone his right - again, this isn't about a comparison between the players but a comment on Messi's all round technical ability).

 

I would also bring up something that has been mentioned before in that many of the all time greats were lauded because they carried average teams to great achievements - Maradona of course is most associated with Napoli and the '86 Argentina side, however Zidane imo also carried the 2000+ French side who looked dogshit whenever he wasn't in it, e.g. 2004 (and they've looked turd ever since he retired too). Even the 2006 World Cup, that French side was all about Zidane - when he started "playing", the entire team played. So far, with Messi, he's looked poor for a talented but disjointed Argentina side when they've relied on him to carry them. One has to wonder how he'd fare in a Barca side without Xavi and Iniesta running rings around the opposition. It's still early days for him though.

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

[ponsaelius]

He'll turn it on for Argentina, it's just since he started getting ridiculously good he's had Maradona as coach. Now under Batista we'll see him shine. He's already scored against Spain, Brazil and Portugal just since Maradona went after the WC.

 

I think you're underrating his free-kicks too. He doesn't get to take them all the time at Barcelona, but middle-close range free kicks he can take well. Not Maradona well, but certainly a lot better than CRonaldo who's probably the most overrated set-piece taker on the planet.

[Mr. Snrub]

He was Argentina's best player at the World Cup.

[ponsaelius]

'Lionel Messi - Tango' on certain video site.

 

Class.

[Ronaldo]

He was Argentina's best player at the World Cup.

 

Higuain. But Messi wasn't far behind.

[ponsaelius]

I remember Higuian being average until he poached a few goals off Messi's good work.

[Guest Flatline]

His passing range and vision in general are very limited

 

Couldn`t disagree more, to me messi`s vision is every bit as good as Xavi`s, it just happends further up the field.

Messi`s vision is what will have him on the barca team well into his 30`s even when his pace is long gone.

Would a player with a "limited" vision set up 25 assists by april?

[Guest Flatline]

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

 

I fully agree with you that Messi is not a complete player, but by that line of reasoning, neither were Zidane. If Messi lack what you describe then surely Zidane must lack the pace/agression/goalscoring virtues that messi possess? Not trying to be clever or anything just genuinly want you to elaborate on what you think constitutes being a "complete player"?

[Disco]

Argentina are rightfully trying to play him in the same false 9 position Barca do and create there team around him. Mixed so far but it'll be interesting if they can get it right for the Copa.

[Flip]

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

 

I fully agree with you that Messi is not a complete player, but by that line of reasoning, neither were Zidane. If Messi lack what you describe then surely Zidane must lack the pace/agression/goalscoring virtues that messi possess? Not trying to be clever or anything just genuinly want you to elaborate on what you think constitutes being a "complete player"?

 

Maradona was never a complete player either ffs. Could he head the ball? Could he score with his both feet? Maradona had an immense technical ability but calling him complete is an overstatement.

 

Pele was complete, Pele could do just about everything there is in football, also he stopped a war, won 3 WC, 32 career titles, scored 1000+ goals, and above all this man had no referee to protect him. He was physically raped every single match, but he stood up and kept on playing except in 66 when he got enough.

 

With that said, Messi ranks behind all of these until he wins and does more, but theres no doubt he's the best of this generation.

[Beren]

Zidane at his best from about 99 till 2004 was brilliant in nearly every game he played in. Personally I don't think a direct comparison between him and Messi works because they were/are so different. It's like comparing Xavi and Messi, apples and oranges, i.e. two distinctly different players, because of the way they played and the roles they had in their respective teams.

 

Much of the brilliance of Zidane, like Xavi, came in the middle of the park, or in nothing areas out wide, where you could really appreciate his touch, control, ability to trick the opposition/change direction, and vision/passing ability. At his core, he was a great teamplayer who could turn a tight situation where nothing was happening into a teammate (fullback, striker, etc) running with the ball clean through into space or in on goal. This style is primarily what made him arguably the best player in modern times at performing in the big games at the highest levels - he thrived on being closed down quickly, man marked, trailed, etc, as it meant he could drift and then create space for others. Arguably the only downside with him was that he could drift in and out of matches, but the fact that he could top this play off with amazing technical ability in the final end (with both feet), resulting in great goals scored from all kinds of angles and ranges and brilliantly weighted through balls/crosses/free kicks/etc, makes him an all time great imo. The stats might not back it up, but he really was the perfect big game player.

 

Regarding Messi, he is obviously the best player of this generation and is exceptional on a week in, week out basis, and probably the most effective individual attacking player ever at club level. However, I think there are a few issues to consider with him.

 

Firstly, I think he can be read and can be marked out of games. He struggled last year against Inter, who shut him out completely, he struggled the year before against Chelsea (and in the final against ManU). In those games he was up against players who read him easily, kept up with him, teams organised enough to double up effectively, and generally reduced him to cameo appearances almost. He regularly struggles at international level too where he looks nothing like the player he is for Barca every other week. In short, I think there are some teams with world class defensive players who can deal with him, and a whole bunch of others who can't - how good he looks depends on who he's up against. If he had to play Chelsea or Germany every week, he'd probably have a good game every five or six times with quiet games making up the rest. If he had to play Madrid or Arsenal every week, he'd run riot. I think this season, without there being an international competition, will be one where he does the latter and just rapes everyone, maybe even ManU in the CL Final give how s*** they've looked, but the point still stands - he's very much "stoppable".

 

Secondly, leading on from the first point, I think he's a tad one dimensional and overrated in areas outside of his direct dirbbling/scoring. I've not seen him put a good cross in in ages, and although some might argue that's because he doesn't need to, I can't help but think it's probably because he's just not very good at them. Same applies for free kicks and set pieces, they're not his forté (unlike Maradona). His through balls are highly overrated, he usually gets the weighting wrong and even then it's usually the same old 90 degree angled slide rule that he keeps trying. His passing range and vision in general are very limited - when you watch Barcelona play most of the time it's Xavi playing a wonderfully weighted curling through ball, never Messi. I think this is why he tends to be so quiet/anonymous for Argentina and in those few disappointing big games he's had in the CL - if he can't dribble at will past a team, he'll not do much else other than a very basic pass-n-move game. Similarly, although his finishing is excellent, he's not a player who'll be scoring from outside the box too often, nor would I expect him to be scoring awkwardly acrobatic goals anytime soon (can't ever see him scoring that Zidane volley for example on his left foot, let alone his right - again, this isn't about a comparison between the players but a comment on Messi's all round technical ability).

 

I would also bring up something that has been mentioned before in that many of the all time greats were lauded because they carried average teams to great achievements - Maradona of course is most associated with Napoli and the '86 Argentina side, however Zidane imo also carried the 2000+ French side who looked dogshit whenever he wasn't in it, e.g. 2004 (and they've looked turd ever since he retired too). Even the 2006 World Cup, that French side was all about Zidane - when he started "playing", the entire team played. So far, with Messi, he's looked poor for a talented but disjointed Argentina side when they've relied on him to carry them. One has to wonder how he'd fare in a Barca side without Xavi and Iniesta running rings around the opposition. It's still early days for him though.

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

 

Top quality post.

[Fugazi]

I've seen Messi get plenty of assists off corners, he doesn't really attempt crosses in open play but how of Barca's attacking players do? (bar Xavi).

 

As has been said, some of his passes for assists are superb, I wouldn't say he's one-dimensional at all.

[Tooj]

 

So the point I'm trying to make here, if any, is that whilst Messi is probably the most effective solo attacking outlet ever (at club level) and certainly the best player in the world, a phenomenal talent, he's by no means a complete player, which is what Zidane and Maradona were, nor have his achievements matched what some of those he's being compared to have done, even if what he's done already is damn impressive for a 23 year old. If there is someone to compare him to, I'd argue that the original Ronaldo at his peak would serve as a good comparison, even if he was an out-n-out striker, as they're both explosive attacking players with great pace on the ball and the ability to change direction at the drop of a shoulder (and I'd also argue the original Ronaldo at his peak was the better player too).

 

I fully agree with you that Messi is not a complete player, but by that line of reasoning, neither were Zidane. If Messi lack what you describe then surely Zidane must lack the pace/agression/goalscoring virtues that messi possess? Not trying to be clever or anything just genuinly want you to elaborate on what you think constitutes being a "complete player"?

 

Maradona was never a complete player either ffs. Could he head the ball? Could he score with his both feet? Maradona had an immense technical ability but calling him complete is an overstatement.

 

Pele was complete, Pele could do just about everything there is in football, also he stopped a war, won 3 WC, 32 career titles, scored 1000+ goals, and above all this man had no referee to protect him. He was physically raped every single match, but he stood up and kept on playing except in 66 when he got enough.

 

With that said, Messi ranks behind all of these until he wins and does more, but theres no doubt he's the best of this generation.

 

Totally agree about Pele. For me he's the greatest of all time due to how complete he was. He could do absolutely everything.

 

He was a physical monster, superb pace, amazing leap, superb aerial ability, great finisher, great passer, superb vision, his left foot was just as good as his right.

 

Plus he also scored every type of goal imaginable.