Alan Pardew

[ponsaelius]

I think it's scared Pards off 433 for life. Such a random game with a team in blistering form just taken apart by fucking Wigan.

 

The implications of that game have ran deep.

 

It was shit but it was riculous in that they scored with every shot they had. Just laughed when Di Santo stuck it in the top corner.

[Beren]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

 

Also, Wigan were actually a fantastic side that day who finished each of their chances. They also beat pretty much everyone else in the top 6 on that run

[Rich]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

 

Also, Wigan were actually a fantastic side that day who finished each of their chances. They also beat pretty much everyone else in the top 6 on that run

 

The 3-4-3 destroyed our 4-3-3 because Ba and Ben Arfa stayed too far up the field and they consistently had two-on-one against our fullbacks with their own wide forwards and Boyce/Beausejour. It was one of the most basic tactical victories I've seen and should never have been allowed to happen.

 

For that game to have "scared him off" the 4-3-3 would be ridiculous, as there's not exactly a boatload of PL teams who play a 3-4-3. It hasn't though, as the Liverpool game proved.

[Beren]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

 

Also, Wigan were actually a fantastic side that day who finished each of their chances. They also beat pretty much everyone else in the top 6 on that run

 

The 3-4-3 destroyed our 4-3-3 because Ba and Ben Arfa stayed too far up the field and they consistently had two-on-one against our fullbacks with their own wide forwards and Boyce/Beausejour. It was one of the most basic tactical victories I've seen and should never have been allowed to happen.

 

For that game to have "scared him off" the 4-3-3 would be ridiculous, as there's not exactly a boatload of PL teams who play a 3-4-3. It hasn't though, as the Liverpool game proved.

 

Their wide men were incredible. As you say Martinez tactically wiped the floor with Pardew. When eventually Tiote went out to meet the wide men it left a chasm in the middle of the pitch which they exploited ruthlessly.

[ponsaelius]

Shitdrew OUT

[Guest BooBoo]

Parjew IN!

[Rich]

I went looking to see if anywhere had written about that particular game and found this from Michael Cox on Zonal Marking:

 

Against Newcastle it was more attacking. Newcastle were playing a 4-3-3 shape, so Wigan only had 3 v 3 at the back. Faced with either playing 5 v 3 with the wing-backs dropping deep, or 3 v 3 with them pushing on, they went for the brave option. With Alan Pardew’s side looking to play quite a reactive game and letting Wigan have the ball, Martinez instructed his wing-backs to get forward and create 2 v 1 situations with the wingers down the flanks – Newcastle were caught understaffed at the back, conceding two goals in the opening 15 minutes.

 

The most interesting feature of the play, and a small example that sums up the benefit of the 3-4-3 shape, was that Newcastle didn’t know how to press the 3-4-3 with their 4-3-3. The problem was this – Ali Al-Habsi would look to play the ball out to his three centre-backs, so Wigan could get the ball down and play. Newcastle wanted to stop them building from the back, so Hatem Ben Arfa and Demba Ba in the wide positions looked to close down Wigan’s ‘outside’ centre-backs. But this then left the Wigan wing-backs free, and Al-Habsi could knock balls out to the flank, where the wing-backs would then move forward to create those 2 v 1 situations. If the Newcastle full-backs came out to the Wigan wing-backs, then the Wigan wingers would be free.

 

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee512/zonal_marking/wigan3.jpg

 

Newcastle’s spare man was in the centre of midfield, and they could have been cleverer with how the three shifted across the pitch to close down the Wigan wing-backs, but they still would have been vulnerable to quick balls out to the flanks anyway. In the end, Pardew decided the only way Newcastle could press Wigan (at 2-0 down, and needing the ball) was to switch to a 3-4-3 himself. Newcastle hadn’t played that way before, and haven’t played that way since. Martinez had forced the overachievers of the season to play in an alien way, and that in itself was a victory.

 

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/05/16/wigan-stay-up-after-a-switch-to-3-4-3

 

Such a shame that we were undone this way when using everyone's preferred formation and when Pardew chose the more attacking option (probably buoyed by our form going into that game). I do definitely think it's had a major effect on him since, but he should be a good enough manager to understand it was an anomaly due to the way Wigan set-up and due to the form they hit around that time. I think desperation will force him back to the 4-3-3 type setup sooner rather than later, and it will hopefully lead to us finding our feet again.

 

As suggested it's not a "cure all" but I do think it'll give us the best chance of getting back towards our peak as it tends to bring the best out of most of our key players.

 

As an addendum, I've got a lot of time for Roberto Martinez. Hope he ends up here some day and I can't quite believe Liverpool went for Rodgers over him, in a move that seemed principally based upon what Rodgers had done with Swansea - after all he did was continue a philosophy that Martinez pioneered there. Here's his comments on why he switched that 3-4-3 from the same article:

 

“When you play a 4-3-3, you rely a lot on the full-backs to get high up the pitch. You shouldn’t look at a system as away to win a football match, it is the players that play the system. Maynor [Figueroa], Gary [Caldwell] and Antolin [Alcaraz] have been so solid with a back three, and it allows [other] players to be high up the pitch, like the wing-backs. They aren’t full-backs that need to get deep and then forward to give us an extra man, they are in positions where they can do both a little bit better, and we can be a little bit more solid.

 

“The difference is the width that we get…before, we had to compromise a little bit, when you want to be very attack-minded, the full-backs have to push on, so you leave two players at the back. Now you’re still pushing the wing-backs on, but you’ve still got three players at the back, plus probably a midfielder. In the West Brom game, as Paul Scharner will tell you, we were attacking with seven, eight, nine players and they were surprised it, and that’s what the system gives you, without being weak at the back.

 

“It suits our players. When you’ve got a Jean Beausejour who is a specialist in that position, you take advantage of that. The back three gives you that. Then there’s the energy we’ve got in midfield, players who can play between lines like Shaun Maloney and Jordi Gomez. It’s so difficult to play against…there’s a few clubs playing it around Europe now, Napoli are one: they play it with Cavani, Hamsik and Lavezzi…this is the advantage of this system – it goes where the danger is…it’s not in defensive lines, it’s not working as a unit of four, it’s not man-marking.”

 

Gushing over.

[Sima]

SNEARER IN

[Guest Slippery Sam]

Pardfather IN (for now!)

 

The Holy Parder said himself that he convinced "Mike" that "this team deserved another season [rather than sell one or two of the best players]".  If he doesn't want those top, plum (purple is soooo 90's, darling), players to be sold at the end of this season then it's down to him to improve matters and results......

[timnufc22]

For all the much trumpeted 433, it's worth bearing in mind that we looked good in that formation perhaps in two and a half games- WBA, Stoke and the second half v Liverpool. We also used it Swansea who passed us off the park and in a rather dire home win v Bolton, illuminated by a HBA worldie. All those teams mentioned were teams whose seasons had pretty much ended or were heading down. It's not as if we taking on the big guns like that and our two most impressive results of the season at home to Man Utd and away at Chelsea were far more akin to the 442.

 

If people think just switching to 433 is going to result in lush football and guaranteed improvements then that's a very simplistic way of looking at things. Our problems go deeper than formation issues at the moment; poor player form, suspensions, injuries and a lack of team consistency are also key factors in our sluggish start to the season.

 

Swansea couldnt get in behind once, as much as they had the ball we were actually comfortable, kept the shape well and broke on them. We started 4-4-2 against Bolton, and Im sure Pardew pretty much admitted it was to try and get Ba a goal. He was subbed and refused to shake Pardew's hand and I remember being really annoyed that we treat Bolton with such disregard and at the cheek Ba had to do that.

 

It wouldnt fix things over-night, but it would help just to have some consistancy to potentially get some fluidity going. Instead of chopping & changing so much as we have this season.  One thing it would change instantly is Ben Arfa being higher up the pitch and beating people in the final third instead of his own half, and thats a no-brainer for me.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Intuitively I really like that 3-4-3 that Martinez plays, it's so easy to instruct the wide players to play a little bit further forward or back and alter the feel of the game while it's in progress. And if you find your wide players being marked strongly, you can push the ball up the middle.

 

Saying that though, Wigan only win a handful of games a season, so maybe I'm missing something.

[Rich]

The quality of the players at his disposal, perhaps?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The quality of the players at his disposal, perhaps?

 

Yep, obviously that's a factor. I don't know if the players are that bad though, they aren't any worse than Villa/Sunderland/Stoke/Norwich/Southampton etc etc. Guess they'll finish higher up the league this season that in recent times.

 

Maybe the 3-4-3 leaves them more exposed in defence at times.

[Shak]

*WARNING: Short, concise post coming*

 

Swansea didn't pass us off the park tbh, they just knocked it around aimlessly for the sake of it and hardly had a sniff of our goal to show for it.

 

We looked the far more threatening side.

 

Anyway, I can see what Otter is saying to some extent. The main reason we're so shit in an attacking sense is that our movement off the ball is absolutely fucking woeful. There's no reason a 4-4-2 can't produce good football, but with the exception of Ben Arfa none of our players ever stray from their positions at all. This is the root of the problem.

 

A good passing team will have players that constantly drift into different areas, finding space to receive the ball or dragging defenders out of position for a teammate to run into and exploit. They move as a team, working to create space for each other as well as themselves.

 

We don't do that at all. Everyone has their position and that's where they play. When we go 4-4-2 though our two CM's generally stand next to each other like a pair of holding midfielders. It's rare that either of them ventures forward and gets beyond either of the strikers. Our forwards meanwhile aren't much better. Neither drifts out wide to try and find a bit of space, Ba sometimes tries to drop deep but while he's quite decent technically he's no playmaker by any stretch of the imagination. The result is that the divide between our midfield and attack is massive, and the natural outcome is then loads of long balls.

 

Compounding the problem is the fact that our first choice wingers, Ben Arfa and Jonas, are both much more comfortable cutting inside than they are hugging the byline and getting crosses into the box. Our first choice fullbacks are no better, Santon because he's more comfortable cutting inside too and Simpson because he's extremely limited as an attacker.

 

The net result it that our front six end up setting up like this when in possession.

 

                Cabaye    Tiote       

 

                                    Jonas

            Ben Arfa

                        Ba

                      Cisse 

 

No space to play the ball forward in, no threat from out wide, no real attacking plan at all. It's generally hope that Ben Arfa produces something special at some point or that one of our hopeful punts forward bounces nicely for Ba or Cisse and they can put one away.

 

Switching to a 4-3-3 isn't going to be some sort of great cure for our problems, but it would help a lot for a number of reasons.

 

First, when we go with three in the middle it leads to Cabaye playing in an advanced position. This helps a lot as we now have someone who is capable of linking the midfield to the attack in a way that Ba can't. We still have our two holding midfielders in Jonas and Tiote, but we now have someone who's capable of drifting around between midfield and attack and picking out a killer pass in the final third.

 

It also takes our two strikers out of each others shadows. By forcing one of them out onto the left you're making him provide some space for the team, simply by just standing out there. He's still not going to provide a tremendous threat in terms of getting to the byline and putting crosses in, but it stops teams from being able to just play very narrowly in defence and giving us no space to work in.

 

It also puts what is by far our best player in a position where he's much more likely to do some real damage. In a 4-4-2 Ben Arfa tends to get the ball in two main ways. The first is to drop deep and receive it from Simpson. This means he's generally getting the ball somewhere in his own half with most of the opposition team in front of him, good as he is he's not going to hurt them from there very often. The other way is to drift infield and try and find some space between the midfielders and the strikers. However once he receives it what does he have in front of him? Usually just two strikers who are within a few yards of each other, neither is pulling wide to create space for him to work with or for their strike partner to exploit. On top of this Jonas is providing no outlet on the left and Simpson isn't going to go bombing down the right on the overlap either. So it's either try and pick out a perfect through ball or go it alone, not a whole lot that you can do there.

 

Stick him in a more advanced position and he's much more likely to get the ball in a position where he can hurt teams. With Cabaye linking midfield to attack he's less inclined to drift infield every time, he can try and isolate his fullback and when he does get the ball he'll be in position to actually do something with it more often.

 

I don't think switching to 4-3-3 is going to lead to us playing wonderful football all of a sudden, but I do think that it will allow us to build from the back much better than we currently do. It's a system that suits our players far better than 4-4-2 does, I really don't even think there's much debate to be had about that.

[Shak]

As for Pardew, my main feeling towards him this year is disappointment tbh.

 

Think he's bottled it big time. Should have been looking to push on and try and build on what he did last year. Instead he's tried to just repeat the same things he did last year with nothing new added, been a huge let down IMO.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I find it hard to believe that Pardew would change our formation against every team in the league, because we were undone by the one team that plays 3-4-3. Then again, I still find it hard to believe that he would do it to keep Ba happy, but week on week that looks more and more likely considering we haven't played last season's version of 4-3-3 at any point.

 

Either way, it's annoying.

[BlueStar]

Think the main thing for me is how fucking abysmal our movement off the ball is.  Finally get a great cross in, no-one in the fucking box at all.

[Ronaldo]

Think the main thing for me is how f***ing abysmal our movement off the ball is.  Finally get a great cross in, no-one in the f***ing box at all.

 

The movement from the midfield has been brainless and ineffective for as long as I can remember.

[colinmk]

Totally agree Shak.

[Dr Venkman]

The movement thing is shocking like, which is why I keep going on about default modes of playing the game, it seems like he coaches safety first football all season long, it's not right for a team aiming for top 6, it's avoid relegation football.

[merlin]

The movement thing is shocking like, which is why I keep going on about default modes of playing the game, it seems like he coaches safety first football all season long, it's not right for a team aiming for top 6, it's avoid relegation football.

 

Agreed - the lack of options for players in possession when we have the ball is appalling - there is no movement or running off the ball to offer options for a pass.

 

This HAS to be down to the manager - Carver was coach under SBR and there was more off the ball movement then.

[Froggy]

As for Pardew, my main feeling towards him this year is disappointment tbh.

 

Think he's bottled it big time. Should have been looking to push on and try and build on what he did last year. Instead he's tried to just repeat the same things he did last year with nothing new added, been a huge let down IMO.

 

If he did add something new and it failed horribly, would you say he should have stuck with what he done last season?

[Yorkie]

*WARNING: Short, concise post coming*

 

I think you've summarised our feebleness on the ball perfectly, Shak. Our imbalanced, shapeless, impotent, immobile front six has left our attacking play timid and opportunist. Not only has it made us less of a threat, it's made us susceptible to the counter because it's made us so poor in possession.

 

Our play going forward's an absolute joke atm, like. The only thing you missed is our wanktastic set pieces (which are more threatening to us than the opposition).

[BlueStar]

The short corners are particularly baffling as they don't even fit with the rest of the play. If we're going to play this type of turgid football, wang it in the box and hope someone standing around in the middle gets a foot on it rather than expecting the two guys taking the corner to somehow magic the ball through a blind alley with no options, which ends up with us being torn apart on the break. Taking a short corner when we've got Krul in the opposition box sums that one up

[The College Dropout]

In recent games only Anita & Santon has looked to pass and move. the rest lay a ball and just stand there. The 2 that pass and move are defensive players who look rather toothless in an attacking threat but if the rest of the lads played in that fashion we would be so much better.

 

The goal we conceded against L'pool is a prime example of this. Jonas is in the middle of the pitch, passes it.. stands still, surprised that someone wants to pass to him and then loos.es the ball.

 

 

One of the benefits of playing 3 in central midfieldish positions is that 2 have licence to really roam and move.

 

But honestly, our whole team stinks. EVERYTHING about our attacking play is poor, everything. No movement. Massive gap between strikers and midfield/no link between the 2. Often play very deep. Apart from the odd Cabaye special, rarely look to play cute incisiveness passes in the middle, not a consistent threat out wide. Creative midfielders play too deep. And the set-pieces....