Alan Pardew

[Parky]

The people that are so ready to move him on already are the specific reason he was given such a long contract.

 

Oi Dekka well give im an eight year deals cause those cahnts on N.O. cahrnt be twusted yeah?

 

Llambias pretty much directly gave it as a reason for the contract. Theyre fully aware certain sections will kneejerk after a bad run, thats exactly whats happening to some.

 

It was a PR stunt. If the team are in any relegation danger at x-mas or if he (Pards) steps out of line with reg to the board or stops sucking Ashleys cock he'll be out in 5min.

[Unbelievable]

The last few pages of this thread make me sad. Liverpoolesque sense of entitlement.

[Parky]

There is no point in discussing whether Pardew should be sacked or not, because it clearly aint going to happen unless we face a relegation fight.

 

To add to that, we could not attract the sort of replacement that would improve matters because every manager in the country(and plenty abroad no doubt)are aware that Ashley will not give any incumbent the sort of money necessary to improve the side.

 

That doesn't mean Pardew is above criticism just because he oversaw a 5th place finish - even Roeder managed to get the club into 7th in his first season and Dalglish got us to finish 2nd after taking over from KK.

 

His record is NOT one of a consistently successful manager in the long term at a club - and that is what sets the top men like Wenger and Fergie apart from the rest. Mourinho also falls into that category and even people like Jol have a better long term CV.

 

I reckon Pardew is a good man manager in his first years with a club, but lacks the ability to change the team during matches so that defeats are turned into wins or draws...how many times have we come back from a goal down to win a game in the PL..?

I am still to be convinced that he can get the best out of players over a long period of time...Tiote, Cisse and Cabaye have unquestionably regressed as players this season.

 

Whatever any on here think, though, he is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

 

They will keep him unless there is any kind of real crisis from the player side or the league table. For them he is easy to work with and doesn't play up or not follow the company line.

 

Even people who are hard on him on here recognise that he has plenty of positive characteristics...Just playing football that is easy on the eye or makes any kind of sense isn't one of them.

 

What I do like about him is that he's made the team more solid and he's done this basically with a side that is short of quality at the back.

[Jayson]

The people that are so ready to move him on already are the specific reason he was given such a long contract.

 

Oi Dekka well give im an eight year deals cause those cahnts on N.O. cahrnt be twusted yeah?

 

Llambias pretty much directly gave it as a reason for the contract. Theyre fully aware certain sections will kneejerk after a bad run, thats exactly whats happening to some.

 

It was a PR stunt. If the team are in any relegation danger at x-mas or if he (Pards) steps out of line with reg to the board or stops sucking Ashleys cock he'll be out in 5min.

 

Well theyve certainly increased his payout for that PR stunt. It also wont take us being near that for fans to become discontent obviously.

[Parky]

The people that are so ready to move him on already are the specific reason he was given such a long contract.

 

Oi Dekka well give im an eight year deals cause those cahnts on N.O. cahrnt be twusted yeah?

 

Llambias pretty much directly gave it as a reason for the contract. Theyre fully aware certain sections will kneejerk after a bad run, thats exactly whats happening to some.

 

It was a PR stunt. If the team are in any relegation danger at x-mas or if he (Pards) steps out of line with reg to the board or stops sucking Ashleys cock he'll be out in 5min.

 

Well theyve certainly increased his payout for that PR stunt. It also wont take us being near that for fans to become discontent obviously.

 

Have they?

[themanupstairs]

The only reason I thought we may have stumbled upon a very good manager in Pardew last season was the fact that he looked like he was learning from his mistakes, and tinkering slightly with line ups and formations until he found a way to get the best out of Ben Arfa and Cabaye in that 433. It lead to us cementing our place right up there, and got the results we needed to finish in the top 5.

 

This season he doesn't seem to be trying to remedy the obvious paralysis in our attacking play and ball retention. This is what has me worried. We're also conceding goals we weren't letting in last season. Fair enough we've had to make personnel changes right through the back 5, but even when we did that last season we only really paid for it at Norwich and Fulham (Spurs away was just one of them days).

 

He has got to stop us playing to contain the opposition and let the opposition worry about us, which in my mind gives us the psychological advantage going into a game when the opposition see Ba, Cisse and Ben Arfa lining up against them in a front 3. At the moment we are losing that battle before a ball has been kicked as the opposition manager and defence go into the game knowing that all they have to do is get to the long ball first.

[Parky]

The only reason I thought we may have stumbled upon a very good manager in Pardew last season was the fact that he looked like he was learning from his mistakes, and tinkering slightly with line ups and formations until he found a way to get the best out of Ben Arfa and Cabaye in that 433. It lead to us cementing our place right up there, and got the results we needed to finish in the top 5.

 

This season he doesn't seem to be trying to remedy the obvious paralysis in our attacking play and ball retention. This is what has me worried. We're also conceding goals we weren't letting in last season. Fair enough we've had to make personnel changes right through the back 5, but even when we did that last season we only really paid for it at Norwich and Fulham (Spurs away was just one of them days).

 

He has got to stop us playing to contain the opposition and let the opposition worry about us, which in my mind gives us the psychological advantage going into a game when the opposition see Ba, Cisse and Ben Arfa lining up against them in a front 3. At the moment we are losing that battle before a ball has been kicked as the opposition manager and defence go into the game knowing that all they have to do is get to the long ball first.

 

I agree we sit too much and too deep. That front 3 is the best in the league outside the top 4. On the other hand he has got the best out of Hatem when even that looked shaky for a spell last year.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The only reason I thought we may have stumbled upon a very good manager in Pardew last season was the fact that he looked like he was learning from his mistakes, and tinkering slightly with line ups and formations until he found a way to get the best out of Ben Arfa and Cabaye in that 433. It lead to us cementing our place right up there, and got the results we needed to finish in the top 5.

 

 

I find it mysterious for exactly this reason. Pardew was the one who went to the fluid 4-3-3 in the first place, and we did brilliantly in that formation. It suits Cabaye, Cisse and HBA in particular much better than any other system I've seen.

 

So why does he not go back to it now? It's hard to say. I don't buy the argument that it's all to keep Ba happy - doesn't ring true to me. Maybe Pardew thinks we are harder to beat in the 4-4-2 - which I guess is a bit true. Maybe he is maintaining that solid foundation for when the attacking players get their act together. If/when that happens remains to be seen.

 

Also, I don't think our problems are as simple as tactics or formation. We seem to be a bit nervous, our confidence isn't up and we aren't moving off the ball at all. I think the last one is the most important, the amount of times we're all standing around watching the ball is unbelievable. Maybe that is linked to the rigid system, and also to the morale being a bit down.

[Guest BooBoo]

For all the much trumpeted 433, it's worth bearing in mind that we looked good in that formation perhaps in two and a half games- WBA, Stoke and the second half v Liverpool. We also used it Swansea who passed us off the park and in a rather dire home win v Bolton, illuminated by a HBA worldie. All those teams mentioned were teams whose seasons had pretty much ended or were heading down. It's not as if we taking on the big guns like that and our two most impressive results of the season at home to Man Utd and away at Chelsea were far more akin to the 442.

 

If people think just switching to 433 is going to result in lush football and guaranteed improvements then that's a very simplistic way of looking at things. Our problems go deeper than formation issues at the moment; poor player form, suspensions, injuries and a lack of team consistency are also key factors in our sluggish start to the season.

[Unbelievable]

For all the much trumpeted 433, it's worth bearing in mind that we looked good in that formation perhaps in two and a half games- WBA, Stoke and the second half v Liverpool. We also used it Swansea who passed us off the park and in a rather dire home win v Bolton, illuminated by a HBA worldie. All those teams mentioned were teams whose seasons had pretty much ended or were heading down. It's not as if we taking on the big guns like that and our two most impressive results of the season at home to Man Utd and away at Chelsea were far more akin to the 442.

 

If people think just switching to 433 is going to result in lush football and guaranteed improvements then that's a very simplistic way of looking at things. Our problems go deeper than formation issues at the moment; poor player form, suspensions, injuries and a lack of team consistency are also key factors in our sluggish start to the season.

 

[ponsaelius]

Even our worst performance with 4-3-3 wasn't as mind-numbingly shit as the last 2 home games have been.

[Guest BooBoo]

Even our worst performance with 4-3-3 wasn't as mind-numbingly shit as the last 2 home games have been.

 

Losing 4-0 at Wigan ran them close tbf.

[ponsaelius]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

[Unbelievable]

First half at Everton is the worst I've seen us play since Chelsea at home last season.

[Guest BooBoo]

I think it's scared Pards off 433 for life. Such a random game with a team in blistering form just taken apart by fucking Wigan.

 

The implications of that game have ran deep.

[ponsaelius]

I think it's scared Pards off 433 for life. Such a random game with a team in blistering form just taken apart by fucking Wigan.

 

The implications of that game have ran deep.

 

It was shit but it was riculous in that they scored with every shot they had. Just laughed when Di Santo stuck it in the top corner.

[Beren]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

 

Also, Wigan were actually a fantastic side that day who finished each of their chances. They also beat pretty much everyone else in the top 6 on that run

[Rich]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

 

Also, Wigan were actually a fantastic side that day who finished each of their chances. They also beat pretty much everyone else in the top 6 on that run

 

The 3-4-3 destroyed our 4-3-3 because Ba and Ben Arfa stayed too far up the field and they consistently had two-on-one against our fullbacks with their own wide forwards and Boyce/Beausejour. It was one of the most basic tactical victories I've seen and should never have been allowed to happen.

 

For that game to have "scared him off" the 4-3-3 would be ridiculous, as there's not exactly a boatload of PL teams who play a 3-4-3. It hasn't though, as the Liverpool game proved.

[Beren]

True, but that game was ridiculous.

 

We only played 4-3-3 up until 2-0 anyway, when we then tried to match their back 3.

 

Also, Wigan were actually a fantastic side that day who finished each of their chances. They also beat pretty much everyone else in the top 6 on that run

 

The 3-4-3 destroyed our 4-3-3 because Ba and Ben Arfa stayed too far up the field and they consistently had two-on-one against our fullbacks with their own wide forwards and Boyce/Beausejour. It was one of the most basic tactical victories I've seen and should never have been allowed to happen.

 

For that game to have "scared him off" the 4-3-3 would be ridiculous, as there's not exactly a boatload of PL teams who play a 3-4-3. It hasn't though, as the Liverpool game proved.

 

Their wide men were incredible. As you say Martinez tactically wiped the floor with Pardew. When eventually Tiote went out to meet the wide men it left a chasm in the middle of the pitch which they exploited ruthlessly.

[ponsaelius]

Shitdrew OUT

[Guest BooBoo]

Parjew IN!

[Rich]

I went looking to see if anywhere had written about that particular game and found this from Michael Cox on Zonal Marking:

 

Against Newcastle it was more attacking. Newcastle were playing a 4-3-3 shape, so Wigan only had 3 v 3 at the back. Faced with either playing 5 v 3 with the wing-backs dropping deep, or 3 v 3 with them pushing on, they went for the brave option. With Alan Pardew’s side looking to play quite a reactive game and letting Wigan have the ball, Martinez instructed his wing-backs to get forward and create 2 v 1 situations with the wingers down the flanks – Newcastle were caught understaffed at the back, conceding two goals in the opening 15 minutes.

 

The most interesting feature of the play, and a small example that sums up the benefit of the 3-4-3 shape, was that Newcastle didn’t know how to press the 3-4-3 with their 4-3-3. The problem was this – Ali Al-Habsi would look to play the ball out to his three centre-backs, so Wigan could get the ball down and play. Newcastle wanted to stop them building from the back, so Hatem Ben Arfa and Demba Ba in the wide positions looked to close down Wigan’s ‘outside’ centre-backs. But this then left the Wigan wing-backs free, and Al-Habsi could knock balls out to the flank, where the wing-backs would then move forward to create those 2 v 1 situations. If the Newcastle full-backs came out to the Wigan wing-backs, then the Wigan wingers would be free.

 

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee512/zonal_marking/wigan3.jpg

 

Newcastle’s spare man was in the centre of midfield, and they could have been cleverer with how the three shifted across the pitch to close down the Wigan wing-backs, but they still would have been vulnerable to quick balls out to the flanks anyway. In the end, Pardew decided the only way Newcastle could press Wigan (at 2-0 down, and needing the ball) was to switch to a 3-4-3 himself. Newcastle hadn’t played that way before, and haven’t played that way since. Martinez had forced the overachievers of the season to play in an alien way, and that in itself was a victory.

 

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/05/16/wigan-stay-up-after-a-switch-to-3-4-3

 

Such a shame that we were undone this way when using everyone's preferred formation and when Pardew chose the more attacking option (probably buoyed by our form going into that game). I do definitely think it's had a major effect on him since, but he should be a good enough manager to understand it was an anomaly due to the way Wigan set-up and due to the form they hit around that time. I think desperation will force him back to the 4-3-3 type setup sooner rather than later, and it will hopefully lead to us finding our feet again.

 

As suggested it's not a "cure all" but I do think it'll give us the best chance of getting back towards our peak as it tends to bring the best out of most of our key players.

 

As an addendum, I've got a lot of time for Roberto Martinez. Hope he ends up here some day and I can't quite believe Liverpool went for Rodgers over him, in a move that seemed principally based upon what Rodgers had done with Swansea - after all he did was continue a philosophy that Martinez pioneered there. Here's his comments on why he switched that 3-4-3 from the same article:

 

“When you play a 4-3-3, you rely a lot on the full-backs to get high up the pitch. You shouldn’t look at a system as away to win a football match, it is the players that play the system. Maynor [Figueroa], Gary [Caldwell] and Antolin [Alcaraz] have been so solid with a back three, and it allows [other] players to be high up the pitch, like the wing-backs. They aren’t full-backs that need to get deep and then forward to give us an extra man, they are in positions where they can do both a little bit better, and we can be a little bit more solid.

 

“The difference is the width that we get…before, we had to compromise a little bit, when you want to be very attack-minded, the full-backs have to push on, so you leave two players at the back. Now you’re still pushing the wing-backs on, but you’ve still got three players at the back, plus probably a midfielder. In the West Brom game, as Paul Scharner will tell you, we were attacking with seven, eight, nine players and they were surprised it, and that’s what the system gives you, without being weak at the back.

 

“It suits our players. When you’ve got a Jean Beausejour who is a specialist in that position, you take advantage of that. The back three gives you that. Then there’s the energy we’ve got in midfield, players who can play between lines like Shaun Maloney and Jordi Gomez. It’s so difficult to play against…there’s a few clubs playing it around Europe now, Napoli are one: they play it with Cavani, Hamsik and Lavezzi…this is the advantage of this system – it goes where the danger is…it’s not in defensive lines, it’s not working as a unit of four, it’s not man-marking.”

 

Gushing over.

[Sima]

SNEARER IN

[Guest Slippery Sam]

Pardfather IN (for now!)

 

The Holy Parder said himself that he convinced "Mike" that "this team deserved another season [rather than sell one or two of the best players]".  If he doesn't want those top, plum (purple is soooo 90's, darling), players to be sold at the end of this season then it's down to him to improve matters and results......

[timnufc22]

For all the much trumpeted 433, it's worth bearing in mind that we looked good in that formation perhaps in two and a half games- WBA, Stoke and the second half v Liverpool. We also used it Swansea who passed us off the park and in a rather dire home win v Bolton, illuminated by a HBA worldie. All those teams mentioned were teams whose seasons had pretty much ended or were heading down. It's not as if we taking on the big guns like that and our two most impressive results of the season at home to Man Utd and away at Chelsea were far more akin to the 442.

 

If people think just switching to 433 is going to result in lush football and guaranteed improvements then that's a very simplistic way of looking at things. Our problems go deeper than formation issues at the moment; poor player form, suspensions, injuries and a lack of team consistency are also key factors in our sluggish start to the season.

 

Swansea couldnt get in behind once, as much as they had the ball we were actually comfortable, kept the shape well and broke on them. We started 4-4-2 against Bolton, and Im sure Pardew pretty much admitted it was to try and get Ba a goal. He was subbed and refused to shake Pardew's hand and I remember being really annoyed that we treat Bolton with such disregard and at the cheek Ba had to do that.

 

It wouldnt fix things over-night, but it would help just to have some consistancy to potentially get some fluidity going. Instead of chopping & changing so much as we have this season.  One thing it would change instantly is Ben Arfa being higher up the pitch and beating people in the final third instead of his own half, and thats a no-brainer for me.