Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[The Butcher]

1 hour ago, LV said:

The fella lives football and doesn’t want to sit at home doing nothing. There were no other decent jobs about. So they happened to pay him a lot, so what?

 

Ashleys lot put out the propaganda about him only going for the money so that it would quell some of the heat on him with Rafa going. Looks like some have swallowed that whole. Awful stuff. 

He had that China job lined up long before he left us. The rumours started a few months before he joined them. 

 

Ashley propaganda ? 

 

 

[duo]

Am not going to lie I'd have Rafa back in a heart beat - the man is tailor made for this club.

[toontownman]

Head of the academy and reserves. Sorted. 

[LV]

1 hour ago, The Butcher said:

He had that China job lined up long before he left us. The rumours started a few months before he joined them. 

 

Ashley propaganda ? 

 

 

So what? That’s nothing to do with going to China for the money as you’ve claimed ?

 

As if managers don’t explore other options before they leave a club, in this case because the owner is a tawdry cunt who doesn’t have the club’s interest at heart.

The Ashley propaganda was about Rafa going to China purely for the money. Which you’ve hoovered up like a drone. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by LV

[r0cafella]

Context is important here. 
 

Rafa knew as soon as Ashley fucked him on transfers and investment he wasn’t going to renew. 
 

I love how people magically forget how Ashley lied to Rafa on at least two occasions about these things.

[Jaqen]

You can like Rafa and still admit he went to China for the money, like. 

 

The narrative that he wouldn't have had any any better offers football wise from European sides is a bit daft. 

 

There wasn't really much for him to achieve there, the league is abit of a closed shop where a majority of your players have to be Chinese and the top sides can take their pick of the best of them. 

 

He was right to leave us but that and the Everton job have been poor career choices it's fair to say. 

[Abra Dubravka]

I'm a believer of peak trajectory of managers, and right clubs/wrong clubs or wrong/right when judging situations or circumstances when they take up clubs.

 

Watched Lampard's podcast/interview with Neville on Youtube, and he was under no illusions his gig wasn't a long term thing. That was right club, and right circumstances for all involved. Rafa going to Everton is wrong club first and for all, and Everton being Everton is giving you a handicap. 

 

Following on from the managers reaching their peak, it feels disrespectful saying it, but as soon as Newcastle and Rafa parted - off to China - he'd peaked. The harshest of his detractors would say he hit his peak at Valencia, lesser so - his time at Liverpool. However others judge him, I believe he'd have been on a hiding to nothing whatever job after coming back from China, but Everton was perhaps the worst job he could have ever taken.

    

Harry Redknapp for example best example I can best(quickest) example of managers careers peaking and hitting glass ceilings. Took Spurs to top 4, Bale in the San Siro but managing away at the Bernabéu in a Champions League Quarter Final - started managing in 82 with Bournemouth in 3rd Div ffs. Levy tossed him off soon after, England didn't want him nor could afford him due to contract his was blind enough to sign with Levy. 

 

Rafa hit his glass ceiling in management with Liverpool - Istanbul, final two years later, finishing 2nd. As much as it's enjoyable to see Everton nose dive, but it's sad to see Rafa take shit for it. 

 

Objectively speaking, whilst hierarchy of Everton is a laughing stock, Rafa needs to take a lot of blame for how poor Everton have been. Injuries happen, bored of hearing that comment - DCL isn't a 30 a season goalscorer, he's not Everton's difference from finishing 4th-7th to suddenly finishing 12th-16th - he's good to decent on a PL comparison, he's no Henry/Arsenal, Spurs/Kane, us/Shearer, Southampton/Le Tiss degree.

 

The longer Doucoure has been injured the better he's become. Richarlison cost them best part of £50M but I've never seen him have a good game. Other night Rondon seemed to be the player worth £50M up front. Digne last season under was second to Tierney as best LB in the league. Even James turned up and contributed 2/3 of the time. 

 

Rafa's job now as a manager in 2021 is to make good from shit you've been dealt, he got it easy to a certain extent with Ashley as he was only offered up with shit and they never cost anything. (He bombed out £20M Mitro.) At Everton he's expected to get huge purchases performing. It's not 2007 and Antonio Barragan anymore for this guy.

 

Hard to see a player like Seamus Coleman not plant his leg and body through that pass fed too him, not fanny a leg through it as last man and fuck the match for his team. Hard to imagine a Rafa right back ever doing such a thing, especially one who has 300 PL games for club and is captain. Fans have never wanted him, and seeing that from Coleman in a home derby can only tell me dressing room doesn't give an arse either.

 

At the moment Rafa's failing horribly on every metric and deserves the sack.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Abra Dubravka

[Raconteur]

5 hours ago, Jaqen said:

You can like Rafa and still admit he went to China for the money, like. 

 

The narrative that he wouldn't have had any any better offers football wise from European sides is a bit daft. 

 

There wasn't really much for him to achieve there, the league is abit of a closed shop where a majority of your players have to be Chinese and the top sides can take their pick of the best of them. 

 

He was right to leave us but that and the Everton job have been poor career choices it's fair to say. 

 

Rafa, as we know, is a control freak. Yes, he was given a massive wedge, but he was also given complete freedom to bootstrap a mid-table team into the top tier of Asian football. Remember the training facility with 21 pitches and all the bells and whistles?

 

Then the Chinese FA changed the rules about foreigners and salaries. Then (evidenced in hindsight) the Evergrande financial collapse. Then COVID.

 

His time in China has come to be described as a mercenary failure, but I find that ignores a lot of things out of his control (similar to his Everton experience, but that's a story still being written).

[Dokko]

His failings are always someone else's fault and looking at them individualy you'd say fair enough. But when it's club after club you start to think hang on, there's only one common denominator here.

 

Bit like the lad who says all my ex's are crazy or the lass who says all her ex's treat her like shite. Well you picked them. 

[Guest HTT II]

For me, Rafa’s only real dubious job choices have been NUFC (where he was a success), China and now Everton. Chelsea was an interim thing and he did win trophies. Real Madrid… it was his club and he would have likely won them something, but egos, politics and fan unrest saw a quick end to that. China… the money opportunity can’t be denied, but I do believe he went there, as with all his jobs, with genuine intentions to learn, develop, get new experiences and with an ideology that he could create something. That’s why he chose us, which is what he did let’s not forget. And for that I’m eternally grateful, for 3 years he gave me back our club, even under Ashley. He made me dare to dream, like KK, like Sir Bobby. He’s up there with them, again I love the man me! 

[Dokko]

Love him to bits. Got me believing again but when you think his most successful job from his last 4 is us then christ it's not going well for him.

[Guest HTT II]

1 minute ago, Dokko said:

Love him to bits. Got me believing again but when you think his most successful job from his last 4 is us then christ it's not going well for him.

Aye, his next job will be massive for him, he needs to tread carefully. Maybe a random Spanish team who he can get to Europe? I feel Villa pre Gerrard would have been perfect for him, or is pre Howe… 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by HTT II

[Dokko]

1 minute ago, HTT II said:

Aye, his next job will be massive for him, he needs to tread carefully. Maybe a random Spanish team who he can get to Europe? I feel Villa pre Gerrard would have been perfect for him, or is pre Howe… 

 

 

 

Think he wants to live in England but he's probably got a better shot outside here now. He's managed too many teams in the league now, he's a Spanish Mark Hughes in that respect. 

 

Something like Tenerife were he can build an actual island mentality to go to war with the bigger clubs.

 

As said and I know many disagree a project at international level would be good for him where he can build the setup top to bottom. Something like Andorra. He'll go for another prem club though, at this stage he'll take on anything as well as I'd imagine he's a bit bruised after what's gone on. 

[wormy]

14 minutes ago, Raconteur said:

 

Rafa, as we know, is a control freak. Yes, he was given a massive wedge, but he was also given complete freedom to bootstrap a mid-table team into the top tier of Asian football. Remember the training facility with 21 pitches and all the bells and whistles?

 

Then the Chinese FA changed the rules about foreigners and salaries. Then (evidenced in hindsight) the Evergrande financial collapse. Then COVID.

 

His time in China has come to be described as a mercenary failure, but I find that ignores a lot of things out of his control (similar to his Everton experience, but that's a story still being written).

 

I always defended his China decisions for similar reasons but after a Google I've only just come to realise the first biggest issue of the foreign player quota was announced two years before he even went to the CSL.. Everyone and their dog could see such a quota was going to seriously hinder the growth of the CSL as a worldwide interest and in turn, owners would likely stop funnelling money in to it like they had started to do.

 

Tbh that just makes me feel that like Everton, he was well aware of some quite restrictive constraints he was going to be working under and I've not much sympathy that they've both gone wrong. Caveated with the fact I still love the guy, but they're frankly two crazy decisions in hindsight. And the decision to manage NUFC, as grateful as I am for him doing so, wasn't any more sane.  

[Raconteur]

7 minutes ago, wormy said:

 

 And the decision to manage NUFC, as grateful as I am for him doing so, wasn't any more sane.  

 

Certainly can't argue with that! Maybe he's got a soft spot for basket cases and thinks he can fix them?

 

I'm one of those who won't have a word said against his time at the Toon, and the timing of the takeover is a sad sliding doors moment, but his time here is done and I'd like him to prove everyone wrong by turning it around at Everton. I don't think he'll see the season out, but there's every chance his methods take root by New Year and they get better results in the second half of the season.

[TRon]

15 hours ago, Thiago said:

I could win the Euromillions tomorrow mate, doesn't mean I'm getting Blyth into the Football League. 

 

I think you're looking at this in too binary a way. Yes, he's put money in, but how he's put that money in, and the way he's built that club up have been incredibly poor. He's lurched from manager to manager, throwing more money in each time, and now they've got a squad that doesn't work well together at all. Michael Keane for £25m looks no better than what we've got here. Look at the graveyard of attackers - Rooney, Klaasen, Walcott, Sigurdsson, Tosun, Bolasie. That's well over £100m in fees never mind wages. They've had 5 managers since 2016. How do you ever expect success when your idea of stability is David Unsworth as caretaker. 

 

Aye, sure, Marcel Brands deserves a lot of stick, but he also hired him. This is why I hope Staveley gets a proper CEO in. You need expertise in this game, you can't just read a CV and assume. You need to know what actually went on at that club, how does it transfer to here, what's the club's short term and long term aims. You can't just plug Ronald Koeman in and hope it clicks. 

 

Someone described Moshiri as the Freddie Fletcher of Everton. I guess that might be close to the truth, but it depends if he's loaded the club with debt like the Glazers have at Man U. That would be a pretty Fletcher thing to do, Freddie certainly never used his own money, but he always aimed high in a blundering sort of way. 

 

I don't know the financial ins and outs of Everton, perhaps someone else does and can expand on how their finance is structured. At the end of the day where the blame goes will ultimately depend on who pays for their mistakes, the owner or the club. 

[Guest neesy111]

2 hours ago, TRon said:

 

Someone described Moshiri as the Freddie Fletcher of Everton. I guess that might be close to the truth, but it depends if he's loaded the club with debt like the Glazers have at Man U. That would be a pretty Fletcher thing to do, Freddie certainly never used his own money, but he always aimed high in a blundering sort of way. 

 

I don't know the financial ins and outs of Everton, perhaps someone else does and can expand on how their finance is structured. At the end of the day where the blame goes will ultimately depend on who pays for their mistakes, the owner or the club. 

 

I think you mean shepherd.  Fletcher was a commercial director for nufc, an extremely good one as well.

[Abacus]

2 hours ago, TRon said:

I don't know the financial ins and outs of Everton, perhaps someone else does and can expand on how their finance is structured. At the end of the day where the blame goes will ultimately depend on who pays for their mistakes, the owner or the club. 

I just spent a few minutes scanning their 19-20 accounts (which run to June 2020).

 

Holy cow they are a mess. 

 

Over the two years covered by that, they made a combined loss of c.£250m, their net assets more than halved to £70m, their short term borrowings shot up as well.

 

The way I see it, they have essentially been propped up by interest free loans from the owner of about £350m. 

[TRon]

39 minutes ago, neesy111 said:

 

I think you mean shepherd.  Fletcher was a commercial director for nufc, an extremely good one as well.

Yeah I meant Shepherd, I know who Fletcher was, just got them mixed up with them both being associated with NUFC during the SJH era. 

[Consortium of one]

Everton are as mismatched as Newcastle but while we've been on a shoe string they've laid out a shit load of money for their pap.  Cenk Tosun exemplifies their policy: bang average, over paid and doesn't play much. 

[TRon]

26 minutes ago, Abacus said:

I just spent a few minutes scanning their 19-20 accounts (which run to June 2020).

 

Holy cow they are a mess. 

 

Over the two years covered by that, they made a combined loss of c.£250m, their net assets more than halved to £70m, their short term borrowings shot up as well.

 

The way I see it, they have essentially been propped up by interest free loans from the owner of about £350m. 

 

It seems like the owner has ploughed a lot of money into the club, however badly it seems to have been spent. Again though, how he's judged on that will depend on whether it's Everton who end up paying for that debt or him. 

[Abacus]

59 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

It seems like the owner has ploughed a lot of money into the club, however badly it seems to have been spent. Again though, how he's judged on that will depend on whether it's Everton who end up paying for that debt or him. 

Avoiding technicalities, to me it's a bit weird how they've treated this.

 

Anyhow, no interest on the loans or dates or conditions on the repayment date. Utimately, he could just write it off and not require the club to repay it because of how it's treated.

 

It's described as a loan but not treated as a debt - it's been treated as equity, somehow. That being the case it means it's likely to be the owner who stands to lose rather than the club. I reckon.

 

What can't be changed either way is their annual losses, which is what has stopped them spending more and probably will do for a while.

 

Next accounts (to June 21) are due out this month. Would be amazed if it wasn't just as bad.

 

 

[joeyt]

 

Did think think this was a good quote to explain the mess Everton are in

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

It’s a bit ambiguous, a lot of people will read that as criticism of Rafa. 

[Joey Linton]

Think they might sack him just to attempt to take the heat off the owners sadly.