TRon Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We're basically a smash and grab team under Bruce. We were under Rafa as well tbf, but there was always the impression that he was trying to refine us and gradually get us playing more fluid football. With Bruce you get the feeling there's nothing else, he's just going to ride the wave of Rafa's defensive organisation for as long as he can. I'm certain you're saying the same thing as me though... Listen to Rafa describe his team towards the end of last season and it was an extremely thoughtful plan from the get-go. Compact defense and balance. Listen to him describe the team - Lejeune & Schar with ability on ball, Lascelles a no-nonsense defender, width via wingbacks, pairing a ball-winner with a box-to-box midfielder who has a better eye for goal, wide forwards and a focal point striker. When he was able to get the team finally rolling it was clear and ruthless what he was doing and with continued investment it would be more counter attacking precision, likelier better pressers of the ball, and more ruthless in attack. In Bruce you have a man who does the classic "let's entertain the fans and play front foot football" and it bloody failed instantly. He's basically kept spirits up by being a good man manager, he's built on the togetherness, he's been fortunate that we have a team of real honest professionals, he's been fortunate for Rafa's 2 years with these players, he's added genuine pace in ASM and right now we're defending great and smashing a goal in late to keep it going. But when the going got tough on HIS PLAN, he reverted to Rafa's tactics with some tweaks. What will he do if that isn't working? The results at Norwich, Leicester, and Burnely don't happen under a Rafa team this season. He'd not sacrifice the balance, it's a narrow loss or draw or smash & grab win but with PURPOSE. He looked at each fixture as a means to accumulate as many points as possible, conserve the energy, finish strong. Bruce seemingly is just throwing out the team, bigging them up, keeping the spirits high, and hoping for the best. Yeah basically how I'm seeing it as well. I just don't really see where Bruce will go in the long run, as I'm yet to be convinced he's a 4-4-2 man. He gave up on it awfully quickly if he is. I just can't imagine it would be the same if Rafa took over a Bruce side, pretty sure he would have started setting things up how he wanted almost immediately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteV Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We're basically a smash and grab team under Bruce. We were under Rafa as well tbf, but there was always the impression that he was trying to refine us and gradually get us playing more fluid football. With Bruce you get the feeling there's nothing else, he's just going to ride the wave of Rafa's defensive organisation for as long as he can. You mean like being the 4th highest scoring team in the league in the second half of last season? To now being the 3rd lowest scorers. In the last 17 games under Rafa we scored 27 goals. In the first 17 games under Bruce we scored 17 goals. We’ve gone back a year. Far less of an attacking threat now compared to the second half of last season. Not having two-thirds of the strikeforce from that period might also have something to do with it mind. Yeah he only spent £60million to replace them Can’t make excuses for someone with a front 3 that cost £80million being bottom for nearly every attacking stat going. He was not given £60 milion to replace them. He was given two players allegedly worth that to replace them. One of which who has, thus far, lived up to his price tag, and one which who has absolutely not. Clearly, we/Bruce, need to make massive improvements to our attacking play if we're going to improve in the long run, but let's not make out he came along, chucked away Rafa's attacking methods, and replaced them with his own. I think a huge percentage of managers would get more out of the forward players that he has. OK, but that's opinion, rather than fact. Do you agree that most manager would get more out of the forward players that he’s got? Some would, obviously. But a quick scan of the league: Hodgson - Zaha, Benteke, Ayew - less goals Silva - Richarlison, Sigurdsson, Calvert-Lewin - two more Howe - King, Wilson, Fraser - one more Pellegrini - Haller, Anderson, Yarmelenko - one more As i've said, our attacking play will have to improve substantially in the long-run, and we can all cherry-pick stats to try and back-up the point we're making (as I've done here, and you're very well-versed in), but it's not as simple as saying 'Bruce is shit at attacking'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
samptime29 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We're basically a smash and grab team under Bruce. We were under Rafa as well tbf, but there was always the impression that he was trying to refine us and gradually get us playing more fluid football. With Bruce you get the feeling there's nothing else, he's just going to ride the wave of Rafa's defensive organisation for as long as he can. You mean like being the 4th highest scoring team in the league in the second half of last season? To now being the 3rd lowest scorers. In the last 17 games under Rafa we scored 27 goals. In the first 17 games under Bruce we scored 17 goals. We’ve gone back a year. Far less of an attacking threat now compared to the second half of last season. Not having two-thirds of the strikeforce from that period might also have something to do with it mind. Yeah he only spent £60million to replace them Can’t make excuses for someone with a front 3 that cost £80million being bottom for nearly every attacking stat going. He was not given £60 milion to replace them. He was given two players allegedly worth that to replace them. One of which who has, thus far, lived up to his price tag, and one which who has absolutely not. Clearly, we/Bruce, need to make massive improvements to our attacking play if we're going to improve in the long run, but let's not make out he came along, chucked away Rafa's attacking methods, and replaced them with his own. I think a huge percentage of managers would get more out of the forward players that he has. OK, but that's opinion, rather than fact. Do you agree that most manager would get more out of the forward players that he’s got? Some would, obviously. But a quick scan of the league: Hodgson - Zaha, Benteke, Ayew - less goals Silva - Richarlison, Sigurdsson, Calvert-Lewin - two more Howe - King, Wilson, Fraser - one more Pellegrini - Haller, Anderson, Yarmelenko - one more As i've said, our attacking play will have to improve substantially in the long-run, and we can all cherry-pick stats to try and back-up the point we're making (as I've done here, and you're very well-versed in), but it's not as simple as saying 'Bruce is shit at attacking'. :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate End Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We're basically a smash and grab team under Bruce. We were under Rafa as well tbf, but there was always the impression that he was trying to refine us and gradually get us playing more fluid football. With Bruce you get the feeling there's nothing else, he's just going to ride the wave of Rafa's defensive organisation for as long as he can. You mean like being the 4th highest scoring team in the league in the second half of last season? To now being the 3rd lowest scorers. In the last 17 games under Rafa we scored 27 goals. In the first 17 games under Bruce we scored 17 goals. We’ve gone back a year. Far less of an attacking threat now compared to the second half of last season. Not having two-thirds of the strikeforce from that period might also have something to do with it mind. Yeah he only spent £60million to replace them Can’t make excuses for someone with a front 3 that cost £80million being bottom for nearly every attacking stat going. He was not given £60 milion to replace them. He was given two players allegedly worth that to replace them. One of which who has, thus far, lived up to his price tag, and one which who has absolutely not. Clearly, we/Bruce, need to make massive improvements to our attacking play if we're going to improve in the long run, but let's not make out he came along, chucked away Rafa's attacking methods, and replaced them with his own. I think a huge percentage of managers would get more out of the forward players that he has. OK, but that's opinion, rather than fact. Do you agree that most manager would get more out of the forward players that he’s got? Some would, obviously. But a quick scan of the league: Hodgson - Zaha, Benteke, Ayew - less goals Silva - Richarlison, Sigurdsson, Calvert-Lewin - two more Howe - King, Wilson, Fraser - one more Pellegrini - Haller, Anderson, Yarmelenko - one more As i've said, our attacking play will have to improve substantially in the long-run, and we can all cherry-pick stats to try and back-up the point we're making (as I've done here, and you're very well-versed in), but it's not as simple as saying 'Bruce is shit at attacking'. :lol: Yeah Bruce is actually an attacking god and I’m just fooling you by suggesting he isn’t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteV Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We're basically a smash and grab team under Bruce. We were under Rafa as well tbf, but there was always the impression that he was trying to refine us and gradually get us playing more fluid football. With Bruce you get the feeling there's nothing else, he's just going to ride the wave of Rafa's defensive organisation for as long as he can. You mean like being the 4th highest scoring team in the league in the second half of last season? To now being the 3rd lowest scorers. In the last 17 games under Rafa we scored 27 goals. In the first 17 games under Bruce we scored 17 goals. We’ve gone back a year. Far less of an attacking threat now compared to the second half of last season. Not having two-thirds of the strikeforce from that period might also have something to do with it mind. Yeah he only spent £60million to replace them Can’t make excuses for someone with a front 3 that cost £80million being bottom for nearly every attacking stat going. He was not given £60 milion to replace them. He was given two players allegedly worth that to replace them. One of which who has, thus far, lived up to his price tag, and one which who has absolutely not. Clearly, we/Bruce, need to make massive improvements to our attacking play if we're going to improve in the long run, but let's not make out he came along, chucked away Rafa's attacking methods, and replaced them with his own. I think a huge percentage of managers would get more out of the forward players that he has. OK, but that's opinion, rather than fact. Do you agree that most manager would get more out of the forward players that he’s got? Some would, obviously. But a quick scan of the league: Hodgson - Zaha, Benteke, Ayew - less goals Silva - Richarlison, Sigurdsson, Calvert-Lewin - two more Howe - King, Wilson, Fraser - one more Pellegrini - Haller, Anderson, Yarmelenko - one more As i've said, our attacking play will have to improve substantially in the long-run, and we can all cherry-pick stats to try and back-up the point we're making (as I've done here, and you're very well-versed in), but it's not as simple as saying 'Bruce is shit at attacking'. :lol: Yeah Bruce is actually an attacking god and I’m just fooling you by suggesting he isn’t He's not, and no-one is suggesting he is, so let's stop being silly. The "facts" that you posted that started this discussion are perfectly valid (if a little one-sided). But if you're not prepared to discuss some of the context around them, and some of the (possible) mitigating factors, I don't think they provide a true reflection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Is it ‘luck’ though if you’ve got a very good keeper making saves, or you’re scoring from set-pieces that are clearly being worked on? I can’t stand Bruce but not many of our wins have I though we didn’t really deserve it. There’s been poor games that could go either way but I do feel we’ve earned being where we are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loki679 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We're 18th out of 20 for goals scored, that usually correlates quite well with how a team is performing. I think it is 'luck', you don't plan for your defenders to score your goals, you don't plan for your keeper to have a worldie every week and even though it's happened, you can't bank on it to keep happening. That's the difference for me. Rafa had a tactical foundation underpinning his gameplan that was predictable and reliable. It didn't rely on any out of the ordinary events, it was just a solid plan which was repeatable and sustainable. My feeling with our current performances is that we're riding a wave of almost random events which have largely fallen in our favour thus far but it's not sustainable. Our defenders aren't going to keep bailing us out with goals, Dubravka is going to hit some rough form, we'll get injuries, the defence aren't going to perform 100% every week. Our luck will run out at some point. Pardew managed to ride it all the way to fifth but he had some outrageously performing strikers for both halves of the season. Bruce doesn't have that luxury and I think it's going to bite him sooner rather than later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanj Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Yeah basically how I'm seeing it as well. I just don't really see where Bruce will go in the long run, as I'm yet to be convinced he's a 4-4-2 man. He gave up on it awfully quickly if he is. I just can't imagine it would be the same if Rafa took over a Bruce side, pretty sure he would have started setting things up how he wanted almost immediately. Bruce was said to be a 3-5-2 man. If you read about tactics, many teams abroad are going back to 4-4-2's that are very hybrid in nature. I certainly don't have a problem with Bruce saying look, Rafa's team was brilliant defensively, the team is suited this way, we're sticking to this. I'm going to focus on getting the team to perform within this system to the best of it's ability. What we lack is keeping the ball when we actually have it, or creating clear cut chances when we do counter or do have the ball. It's all very messy when we have it. Hope and hit, long ball, set pieces have to work, Shelvey has to hit a wonder goal, defenders have to step up and score. It's a major issue that our main 4 attackers in Joelinton, Carroll, ASM, and Miggy have 3 goals between them and the rest have come from midfield and defenders. When the midfield and defenders can't score, we've lost more often than drawn. simple. a proper manager needs to sort that out. with Rafa's team we actually fashioned far more chances but the likes of Kenedy, Joselu, and Ayoze were not banging them in. Only till Rondon gaining form did it start coming together. We kept having so many missed chances each game until Rondon started scoring and the rest clicked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikon Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 We seem to have a lot more muscle injuries now compared to last season... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chopey Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I still can't make my mind up about Bruce ................. Half Ferengi or half Klingon ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Ultimately, given that Rafa's seasons seemed to start slowly but finish very strongly, the best comparisons can be made in May. One thing is for certain though and that is given our league position, Ashley will be happy that the squad is strong enough so there'll be fuck all spent in January and quite possibly the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattoon Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Fuck me sideways are we actually still entertaining a Rafa/Brewcie comparison? Bruce isn't even in the same universe as Rafa, not fit to polish the great man's glasses. Bruce isn't the worst manager we've had, he's got us in a decent position but he's just another Pardew. This thread is making my eyes bleed, I'm out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 The most damning thing about Mike Ashley's ownership of Newcastle United is that, under his regime, a world class manager like Rafa Benitez can appear to have the same ability ceiling as a thicko like Steve Bruce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Had a look in WyScout, one of the most well-renowned and used statistical tools among clubs. Our "expected points" is 16.9, we're 19th in that table with only Aston Villa behind us on 16.4. It's the impression put into numbers: We've picked up results without playing well, had Dubravka save us again and again, and it speaks volumes. Bruce has very little to do with us doing well, and we aren't doing very well at all, we're just picking up results that we generally don't deserve. Yep, we've been lucky as fuck. We've faced teams severely depleted (Man Utd), other teams that just didn't bother turning up (Spurs, West Ham) and fluked a couple of 1-0s that should have gone the other way (and even the 2-0 at Sheffield United according to some, I haven't even seen highlights so can't say for myself). We've not been fucked by refereeing decisions either for the first season in god knows how long. If the perfect storm keeps up, this form can continue. Otherwise there could be a huge drop off, especially if injuries/tiredness hits at the same time as our luck turns. The Sheffield result and performance if Rafa was in charge would have been hailed as a masterclass, you didn’t watch it .Yep he’s had all the luck eh? Every result the team never deserved, yet it pains you that we sit 9th, it’s fucking killing you Whereas, for you, it's like all your Christmases came at once that we are lucky to be sitting 9th. That ambition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relámpago blanco Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 As much as that creates uncertainty, it also gives Newcastle potential to remould the squad in the image that Steve Bruce wants. And just as important is the powerful motivation that gives several players to prove that a new deal is justified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Fuck me sideways are we actually still entertaining a Rafa/Brewcie comparison? Bruce isn't even in the same universe as Rafa, not fit to polish the great man's glasses. Bruce isn't the worst manager we've had, he's got us in a decent position but he's just another Pardew. This thread is making my eyes bleed, I'm out This. It's blindingly obvious but league position will not and does not make Bruce anywhere near Rafa as a manager. A few seem to want to be able to say he's better/has done better than Rafa though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consortium of one Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 As much as that creates uncertainty, it also gives Newcastle potential to remould the squad in the image that Steve Bruce wants. And just as important is the powerful motivation that gives several players to prove that a new deal is justified. Is Bruce capable of remolding a squad in his image? We all believed Rafa could, if allowed. Arguably Bruce isn't a tenth of a manager that Rafa is but results don't lie. You are what your record says you are... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I dread to think what a Steve Bruce side would look like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 As much as that creates uncertainty, it also gives Newcastle potential to remould the squad in the image that Steve Bruce wants. And just as important is the powerful motivation that gives several players to prove that a new deal is justified. Is Bruce capable of remolding a squad in his image? We all believed Rafa could, if allowed. Arguably Bruce isn't a tenth of a manager that Rafa is but results don't lie. You are what your record says you are... Which is why Pardew almost ended up as England manager, down to his pure quality as proved by his record at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
samptime29 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Really think we should be going for Bowen from Hull. Few clubs keen, Leicester I think, but he would be a good option to have here. Saint Maximin, Bowen, Almiron, could play off Carroll too. We need more in centre midfield, sniff someone out -should be spending £30M, need to improve the squad and a add a bit more depth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimpy474 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Back off there Bubb, we can't think like a ambitious proper run club. You mad ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chopey Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Bruce has a history of taking over teams and in the short term getting some good results, he has everything at Newcastle to keep them up, even tactics ffs, but once his influence takes over next season we will go down the same road as Sunderland and Villa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 As much as that creates uncertainty, it also gives Newcastle potential to remould the squad in the image that Steve Bruce wants. And just as important is the powerful motivation that gives several players to prove that a new deal is justified. Is Bruce capable of remolding a squad in his image? A month of beating them with an iron bar, the a good rub down with sandpaper? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Really think we should be going for Bowen from Hull. Few clubs keen, Leicester I think, but he would be a good option to have here. Saint Maximin, Bowen, Almiron, could play off Carroll too. We need more in centre midfield, sniff someone out -should be spending £30M, need to improve the squad and a add a bit more depth. For £30million we could gat Cattermole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate End Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 I’m getting a public hanging on Twitter for this tweet about local hero Brucie Over 170 replies of hate to my Bruce stats tweet Don’t ever tweet about local hero Bruce you’ll get death threats haha. How’s Bruce become an untouchable god? The same flip flops will probably be waiting him gone after this hard run of 8 games Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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