Fantail Breeze Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 1 minute ago, ManDoon said: I thought they changed the red/penalty thing? I.e you didn’t get punished twice if you weren’t like blatantly hacking someone That was for a foul as last man, not handball. As others have said, unless it’s a red players would always take the chance with a pen and handle it on the line to stop a goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Just now, geordie_b said: Because it wasn’t deliberate due to hitting the knee first (or at least I thought that was the interpretation now) Moving your arm towards the ball is pretty deliberate like. I’ll agree he’s unlucky as he tried to use his knee but he knows what he’s doing and we’ve all done similar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, ManDoon said: I thought they changed the red/penalty thing? I.e you didn’t get punished twice if you weren’t like blatantly hacking someone It’s not red if you try to play the ball no matter how clumsily but still red if you just pull someone down from arm for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Tiresias said: It has to be a 'deliberate' handball to avoid reds for obvious bounces off arms. I am kinda alone in thinking he did kinda scoop the ball with teh arm in a forward motion rather than just have it richocet off so maaaaybe makes sense as a red but it is well harsh. The scoop seemed more a reflex/natural motion I think, enough to warrant the penalty, but not clear enough to be a red IMO as it cannot be deemed deliberate for certain. It's a tough one in hindsight. Think the ref should have certainly had more of a proper look though. Edited August 28, 2021 by KaKa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordie_b Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, Disco said: Moving your arm towards the ball is pretty deliberate like. I’ll agree he’s unlucky as he tried to use his knee but he knows what he’s doing and we’ve all done similar. Only see it a few times but looked like the arm swing came after it had hit his arm, something the ref couldn’t have seen when he viewed his replay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Just now, geordie_b said: Only see it a few times but looked like the arm swing came after it had hit his arm, something the ref couldn’t have seen when he viewed his replay It did, but his intent with his arm move was to block it. So although the contact was unfortunate, it was still his intention imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Disco said: Ah, so once it's deemed a handball that has denied a goal it has to be a red, regardless of whether the hand movement was deliberate or not. Fair enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 I think the deliberately bit gets people. I think the refs interpretation of 'deliberate' is as in the example 'player moves the arm towards the ball' which James does, rather than mind reading the player. It is merely meant to stop when ball just bounches dirrectly off at point blank range. James moved his arm and carried ball out o fgoal with it. It is ambiguous, it is daft to double punish pen is definitely enough of a punishment but strangely both a red card and no red card is in the rules so both sides can argue endlessly cos both interpretations seem fair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 1 minute ago, ManDoon said: Yeah I remember them bringing it in, for some reason I thought it was more broad. I swear there was some wording at the time where they were essentially saying they didn’t want to punish people twice. I thought the James one was accidental honestly, but yeah makes sense. That was the double jeopardy thing that got raised a while back. Red, pen and a suspension was (rightly) deemed excessive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 The trouble is if they get rid of the 'deliberate' bit they will get loads of unfair reds, if they keep it in you have this ambiguity. I think solution is more pen should be fine punishment 90% of the time and the ref needs a higher bar for sending off for cases when it is clearly completely conscious and intentional Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 12 minutes ago, ManDoon said: I thought they changed the red/penalty thing? I.e you didn’t get punished twice if you weren’t like blatantly hacking someone Not for that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Tiresias said: I think the deliberately bit gets people. I think the refs interpretation of 'deliberate' is as in the example 'player moves the arm towards the ball' which James does, rather than mind reading the player. It is merely meant to stop when ball just bounches dirrectly off at point blank range. James moved his arm and carried ball out o fgoal with it. It is ambiguous, it is daft to double punish pen is definitely enough of a punishment but strangely both a red card and no red card is in the rules so both sides can argue endlessly cos both interpretations seem fair. Yeah, it's a tough one for James. The way the rule is written though it seems once it is determined to be a handball he then has to go. Really unlucky. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 1 minute ago, ManDoon said: Yeah makes sense, and definitely a good rule change. Just feel like the James one, it’s debatable and feels harsh. To me at least Aye it was the little scoop he did that fucked it. Had it just bounced off his forearm back into play or round the post he'd have probably got away with it. Just too much of a movement made it look deliberate, it's a bit tough on them. Then again it's Chelsea so fuck them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 All Liverpool now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionOfGosforth Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Good to see Terry Mac Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokerprince2004 Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Just seen the James red Incredibly harsh. If thats a red then Lascelles at Villa should have been red? Would probably have done us a favour after today Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duo Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Ruined the game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Chelsea defended really well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 That is brilliant for Chelsea. Fantastic result all things considered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AY Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, midds said: Aye it was the little scoop he did that fucked it. Had it just bounced off his forearm back into play or round the post he'd have probably got away with it. Just too much of a movement made it look deliberate, it's a bit tough on them. Then again it's Chelsea so fuck them. The ball was going in, and he blocked it with his hand. Doesn't have to be "deliberate" and the movement after the touch doesn't matter. It's automatic red. Edit. He moves the hand there before, the weird scoop with his hand doesn't seem to hit the ball? Edited August 28, 2021 by AY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Just now, ManDoon said: Tuchel low key put on a masterclass of coaching in that game, they had basically the worst possible thing happen right before half time, away at Liverpool, and he completely nullified them second half. Really like him, despite the fact I think he might be a humanoid Yeah, getting that result at Anfield having held on for a whole half that well, is even further indication that Chelsea are big time contenders this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Only 3 games in but the table has to look sickening for Arsenal fans. Rock bottom and the worst goal difference is humiliating man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 For everyone (and every pundit) who says it doesn't have to be 'deliberate' here are BOTH parts of teh handball law in relation to red cards on goal line. Quote HANDLING THE BALL For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit. Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence. It is an offence if a player: deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball Here it determines what counts as an offence in relation to a handball. The problem is people think 'deliberate' has to mean the player has a moment to think aha here i move my hand to stop the goal, whereas the example it gives makes it more clear it is meant merely that the player makes a movement with hand that blocks the ball rather than it bouncing directly off. This is ambiguous. However I think they see it as either ambiguous or you end up giving reds for every handball (nonsense imo just make it only pen unless its clearly unsportsmanlike behaviour rather than mere instinctive movement) here is part 2 which I kept seeing quoted by those saying there is no 'deliberate' part and this is in relation to what the sanction should be Quote SENDING-OFF OFFENCES A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off: denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area) This part makes no mention of it being deliberate. However what people who only read this part miss is that it is only an 'offence' if it is deliberate, see above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Crystal Palace under Vieira look like they will grind out results. Considering the amount of player upheaval over the summer, been an okay start. More and more certain that we will have a guaranteed spot in that bottom 3 if Bruce stays on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts