Eddie Howe

[woody]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

Imagine going to your normal job and the manager was like "You're late. Bring iz some cadbury's tomorrow!"

 

"Ah you fucked up today, I see. Bring iz a bribe as payment, my son."

[Mike]

There is no way he and the Steve's didn't house all of that.

 

"Let's play!"

 

And then off to the chocolates. Fucking shambles.

[kingxlnc]

I’ve never understood why ex top players are so well revered and well recieved as PL football managers. A familiar name is ok but what do they actually have about them in terms of coaching? 
In business or in any other field, even in football, top players get that way through intense coaching and development over years, even decades. Many kids start in the academy at 7 and don’t peak until 27, daily training to get there.

 

It’s not hard to see why Howe is excelling, he is the same age as Gerrard and Lampard but has 12-13 years experience in coaching, management, philosophy etc. even if it’s at a lower level, you still need to motivate a group of players to play out of their skin for you. When you have to do it with no money you have no choice but to find the best of the best ways to do it through sheer ingenuity and hard work, as you cannot buy your way out of problems.

 

whereas for top players, when the going gets tough they don’t know how to adapt, it’s new territory. They haven’t experienced real difficulty. Thinking back, all the best players of their era had a lot of limitations as coaches. Which top player really matched their playing success as a manager? Gullit, Souness, Dalglish, Keane, Maradona, Barnes, Pearce, Bryan Robson, Rijkaard, Henry, even our very own Shearer and dare I say even Keegan to an extent. 
 

Guardiola was a good player but was never a top player of the previous lists ilk. And even so, has cherrypicked all his jobs. Zidane you could make a case for of course but I would argue we haven’t even seen enough of him to determine his skills as a top class coach. Conte was like Guardiola, a good not great player. 
 

the point here is that Howe has done his 10,000 hours away from the limelight and therefore is fully poised and ready to be entering his peak as a manager with us. And it’s very exciting! Wenger was another one who was a student of the game, had done a long stint elsewhere before entering his dynasty period with Arsenal. 
 

All of this also shows how silly Everton were to go for a big name over the proven meticulous Benitez, who I guarantee would have got them out of trouble this season. 

[Lazarus]

1 hour ago, kingxlnc said:

I’ve never understood why ex top players are so well revered and well recieved as PL football managers. A familiar name is ok but what do they actually have about them in terms of coaching? 
In business or in any other field, even in football, top players get that way through intense coaching and development over years, even decades. Many kids start in the academy at 7 and don’t peak until 27, daily training to get there.

 

It’s not hard to see why Howe is excelling, he is the same age as Gerrard and Lampard but has 12-13 years experience in coaching, management, philosophy etc. even if it’s at a lower level, you still need to motivate a group of players to play out of their skin for you. When you have to do it with no money you have no choice but to find the best of the best ways to do it through sheer ingenuity and hard work, as you cannot buy your way out of problems.

 

whereas for top players, when the going gets tough they don’t know how to adapt, it’s new territory. They haven’t experienced real difficulty. Thinking back, all the best players of their era had a lot of limitations as coaches. Which top player really matched their playing success as a manager? Gullit, Souness, Dalglish, Keane, Maradona, Barnes, Pearce, Bryan Robson, Rijkaard, Henry, even our very own Shearer and dare I say even Keegan to an extent. 
 

Guardiola was a good player but was never a top player of the previous lists ilk. And even so, has cherrypicked all his jobs. Zidane you could make a case for of course but I would argue we haven’t even seen enough of him to determine his skills as a top class coach. Conte was like Guardiola, a good not great player. 
 

the point here is that Howe has done his 10,000 hours away from the limelight and therefore is fully poised and ready to be entering his peak as a manager with us. And it’s very exciting! Wenger was another one who was a student of the game, had done a long stint elsewhere before entering his dynasty period with Arsenal. 
 

All of this also shows how silly Everton were to go for a big name over the proven meticulous Benitez, who I guarantee would have got them out of trouble this season. 

 

Guardiola was an exceptional player.

 

Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo and Fabregas all cite him as the best deep lying playmaker.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

Guardiola was fucking mint. Him and Luis Enrique are definitely under rated historically. Were my favourite players in the 90s.

 

That side with Guardiola, Enrique, Figo and Ronaldo

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Super Duper Branko Strupar

[Coffee_Johnny]

2 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

I’ve never understood why ex top players are so well revered and well recieved as PL football managers. A familiar name is ok but what do they actually have about them in terms of coaching? 
In business or in any other field, even in football, top players get that way through intense coaching and development over years, even decades. Many kids start in the academy at 7 and don’t peak until 27, daily training to get there.

 

It’s not hard to see why Howe is excelling, he is the same age as Gerrard and Lampard but has 12-13 years experience in coaching, management, philosophy etc. even if it’s at a lower level, you still need to motivate a group of players to play out of their skin for you. When you have to do it with no money you have no choice but to find the best of the best ways to do it through sheer ingenuity and hard work, as you cannot buy your way out of problems.

 

whereas for top players, when the going gets tough they don’t know how to adapt, it’s new territory. They haven’t experienced real difficulty. Thinking back, all the best players of their era had a lot of limitations as coaches. Which top player really matched their playing success as a manager? Gullit, Souness, Dalglish, Keane, Maradona, Barnes, Pearce, Bryan Robson, Rijkaard, Henry, even our very own Shearer and dare I say even Keegan to an extent. 
 

Guardiola was a good player but was never a top player of the previous lists ilk. And even so, has cherrypicked all his jobs. Zidane you could make a case for of course but I would argue we haven’t even seen enough of him to determine his skills as a top class coach. Conte was like Guardiola, a good not great player. 
 

the point here is that Howe has done his 10,000 hours away from the limelight and therefore is fully poised and ready to be entering his peak as a manager with us. And it’s very exciting! Wenger was another one who was a student of the game, had done a long stint elsewhere before entering his dynasty period with Arsenal. 
 

All of this also shows how silly Everton were to go for a big name over the proven meticulous Benitez, who I guarantee would have got them out of trouble this season. 

The point in there is  that being a great player doesn’t equip you to be a great manager. You’d need to be mad/oblivious to disagree with that.  
 

However, Guardiola was a great player and Keegan was a great manager.  They both serve as rare examples of excelling at both.  I would actually chuck Bobby Robson into that rare group also. Two examples, from a multitude of possibilities who illustrate the norm, are Bobby Charlton and Jurgen Klopp (odd pairing but ?‍♂️) who each tried both roles, but were only ‘great’ at one. 

[kingxlnc]

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Guardiola was an exceptional player.

 

Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo and Fabregas all cite him as the best deep lying playmaker.

Fair enough, to be fair I remember when we were linked to him under SBR being over the moon excited but I meant historically in terms of stature, perhaps he didn’t have the profile or reputation of the others. As others have said it might be down to being criminally underrated. I thought he was more like a Dechamps or Dunga reputationally who was a top player for his country and even captain but perhaps not the highest tier on the world stage for his generation, which many of the others were. 

[kingxlnc]

1 hour ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

The point in there is  that being a great player doesn’t equip you to be a great manager. You’d need to be mad/oblivious to disagree with that.  
 

However, Guardiola was a great player and Keegan was a great manager.  They both serve as rare examples of excelling at both.  I would actually chuck Bobby Robson into that rare group also. Two examples, from a multitude of possibilities who illustrate the norm, are Bobby Charlton and Jurgen Klopp (odd pairing but ?‍♂️) who each tried both roles, but were only ‘great’ at one. 

No one is a bigger Keegan fan than me but what I meant was their management career was on a par or better than their immense playing talent. Keegan was a great manager but for a short period and never won anything which placed him below top top tier unlike his playing career. Tbh the one I thought people would take exception to was Dalglish as he did actually win the PL with Blackburn and Div 1 with Liverpool as a manager but tanked here and Celtic… you can see I’ve never quite forgiven him for his terrible time here haha. 
 

SBR is a good shout but his management career perhaps was more impressive than his playing career, he was a decent player but only got 20 caps or so for England. Hoddle did show potential of matching his playing career in his early management days but then fell by the wayside with the fallout with the England comments and never quite recovered. 
 

Perhaps the other standout exception who were great at both (other than Guardiola who I’m happy to be corrected about) is Johan Cruyff. 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by kingxlnc

[Groundhog63]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61247954

 

Sweet

[STM]

To be a good manager, it seems like you need 2 important things; A tireless work ethic/ devotion to the cause and a willingness to LEARN.

 

The day you think you have "cracked" management is the day things go pear shaped. It's clear to me that Lampard and to a lesser extent Gerrard have fallen into the Steve Bruce trap of assuming that they know everything about football, based on their experiences on the pitch.

 

Nutrition? Pfft.

Psychology? Pfft

Sports Science? Pfft

Data Analysts? Pfft.

 

[STM]

Also, it was noticeable on the overlap that when Neville asked Gerrard what his "idea" was, I.e his playing philosophy, style etc, Gerrard didn't really have an answer.

 

If you can't explain your "idea", what chance have the players got?

 

Imagine asking Eddie what his "idea" was? You would be there for hours.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

20 caps for England back then is not to be sniffed at. 

[Conjo]

5 hours ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

The point in there is  that being a great player doesn’t equip you to be a great manager. You’d need to be mad/oblivious to disagree with that.  
 

However, Guardiola was a great player and Keegan was a great manager.  They both serve as rare examples of excelling at both.  I would actually chuck Bobby Robson into that rare group also. Two examples, from a multitude of possibilities who illustrate the norm, are Bobby Charlton and Jurgen Klopp (odd pairing but ?‍♂️) who each tried both roles, but were only ‘great’ at one. 

 

Keegan was a great manager for us, but it's difficult to argue he was a great manager since he didn't really accomplish much outside of his first management job with us. Listening to the Howey interview that was posted on here recently I was laughing when he was answering questions about how Keegan was in training and during team talks ahead of games. My impression was that they mostly played 5/7/11 a side games during training and pre-game preparations were basically him picking a team and telling them to go out and excite the fans. Doesn't exactly scream high level coaching

[macphisto]

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Guardiola was an exceptional player.

 

Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo and Fabregas all cite him as the best deep lying playmaker.

You can an add El Chapo to the list too. Always makes me laugh that he finished his playing career at
Dorados de Sinaloa, Culiacán, Mexico. I wonder how they could afford his salary?

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by macphisto

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

I think great players have often had the benefit of playing in great sides which means less thought has been needed about how to nullify and defeat opponents. Likewise players who go straight into a big club as managers probably don’t have to look at maximising their resources in the same way at players who have gone to clubs in difficult situations. 

[Guest HTT II]

de la Pena was the man…

 

We were linked with both him and Pep. 
 

Pep was massively underrated, such a cool player, but not a great player IMO.

[macphisto]

Italy have a good history of turning top players into managers, Ancelotti, Capello, Mancini.

 

No conversation about great players and top managers is complete without Cruyff. He basically set the template for a lot of future managers, Guardiola a prime example.

 

I wonder if there's something we can learn as a country as our record of top players to good managers isn't great in comparison to others.

[Guest HTT II]

10 minutes ago, Conjo said:

 

Keegan was a great manager for us, but it's difficult to argue he was a great manager since he didn't really accomplish much outside of his first management job with us. Listening to the Howey interview that was posted on here recently I was laughing when he was answering questions about how Keegan was in training and during team talks ahead of games. My impression was that they mostly played 5/7/11 a side games during training and pre-game preparations were basically him picking a team and telling them to go out and excite the fans. Doesn't exactly scream high level coaching

Keegan when he become our manager, was a one off in that he did absolutely everything, a throw back to decades before where the manager was the manager, trainer, scout, physician, everything. That team of ours under him too, we were pressing from the front in the second division and played with high up the pitch full-backs, with no defensive midfielder and a centre-back (Albert) who would basically be an extra midfielder for us that’s how high he often played. We played a style not seen before and took both leagues by storm and with it Europe when we battered Antwerp and Bilbao before losing on away goals. LFC used to press from the front when he played for them well before it become a modern thing (its not and never has been). KK adopted everything he could from his time as a youngster, his time at LFC and with England and with Hamburg. He was a pioneer at the time, a one off, he lacked the trophies, but his teams, how they played and his recruitment, man management and ethos was a breath of fresh air to the game.

[macphisto]

Just now, HTT II said:

Keegan when he become our manager, was a one off in that he did absolutely everything, a throw back to decades before where the manager was the manager, trainer, scout, physician, everything. That team of ours under him too, we were pressing from the front in the second division and played with high up the pitch full-backs, with no defensive midfielder and a centre-back (Albert) who would basically be an extra midfielder for us that’s how high he often played. We played a style not seen before and took both leagues by storm and with it Europe when we battered Antwerp and Bilbao before losing on away goals. LFC used to press from the front when he played for them well before it become a modern thing (its not and never has been). KK adopted everything he could from his time as a youngster, his time at LFC and with England and with Hamburg. He was a pioneer at the time, a one off, he lacked the trophies, but his teams, how they played and his recruitment, man management and ethos was a breath of fresh air to the game.

I agree with what you're saying but I wonder how big a role Arthur Cox played on the training ground under Keegan? 

[Guest HTT II]

KK - You defend from the front, if they don’t have the ball they can’t score, if we do, how many can we get? Score more than the opposition and you win the game. It sounds simple and it is really, but to play how we did, the players he bought and improved, takes skill and he understood football in its purist sense more than most, like a Cruyff. He didn’t need modern (today) elements. He signed good players, man managed them expertly, created a great team spirit, and had a simple philosophy which is the core principles of the game.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, macphisto said:

I agree with what you're saying but I wonder how big a role Arthur Cox played on the training ground under Keegan? 

From my understanding our training consisted of small 5-a-side games, lots of keep ball, shooting and crossing drills and that’s about it. Which KK basically controlled and even played in. Cox and co were more there to give him an ear to talk to, for their wisdom and experience, bear in mind he was a rookie. He dictated every aspect of NUFC and was probably too stubborn in the end. Lawrenson come in as a defensive coach to placate the media, but has been on record saying he basically did fuck all at NUFC as KK took charge of everything.

[Guest HTT II]

KK even massaged players when on the treatment table and gave them his own personal dietary info from his Hamburg days, he also scouted mostly every player we signed personally and was in on most of the contract/signing negotiations, from Cole to Shearer and even Darren Huckerby. When he first took over, the club couldn’t afford Terry Mac’s wages so he paid for him out his own pocket and even told SJH if the club went down, he’d buy his shares, become the owner and IIRC Cox would become our manager in division three. When he managed England’s under 21s he told the board, get me Robbie Fowler, we tried, but LFC said fuck off. He wasn’t after Shearer, the board come to him and said would you fancy Shearer and he obviously said aye, anyone who is a top player I want. And we were in the market for any and every top player available, some who obviously were not even. He also wanted Macmanaman from LFC!

[Conjo]

Feel like I've read these posts from you a thousand times before HTT  I agree he was a great manager - for us.

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, Conjo said:

Feel like I've read these posts from you a thousand times before HTT  I agree he was a great manager - for us.

Ha ha aye, I get carried away when it comes to KK, I just love the man and I feel right now we have a similar bloke in charge of us. Not quite as charismatic, but like KK a workaholic and who knows the simple principles of the game, hard work, good players, good training, good character and fun. Howe brings with him the modernity of the game, however, and that will be the difference for us going forward. KK was stubborn, played one way only, we go all out to win and that’s the best way to win which it was back in the day, we lost the title by a few points, conceding 4 goals more than the then 1-0 to Man Utd lot. I do genuinely believe, however, in Howe, he deeply shares KK’s core principles and philosophy but KK 2.0?

[Coffee_Johnny]

41 minutes ago, Conjo said:

 

Keegan was a great manager for us, but it's difficult to argue he was a great manager since he didn't really accomplish much outside of his first management job with us. Listening to the Howey interview that was posted on here recently I was laughing when he was answering questions about how Keegan was in training and during team talks ahead of games. My impression was that they mostly played 5/7/11 a side games during training and pre-game preparations were basically him picking a team and telling them to go out and excite the fans. Doesn't exactly scream high level coaching

Depends what you equate with high level/top quality coaching and leadership? Getting lost in techniques and tactics does not necessarily equate to being a quality coach/leader. Keegan was a high performing manager at the top two English divisions and England manager. He pitched what he did out of the Shankly book more than the Paisley or modern technobabble coaching manuals, and he was fucking great at it in my opinion. He knew people, let them play, and they (by and large…) would run through walls for him. I think he felt he fell short, at the highest level, but I don’t agree with him. If all the England players had the work effort, fitness, desire to win, and plain old ability he had. His team would have flourished. He didn’t have them enough/the strength of relationship to lead in the way he was great at leading. In my opinion, obvs.