More transfer rumours

[Lazarus]

Remember when Shearer had that clause saying he had to be top earner? Didnt we sign sign someone and his pay had to be bumped up??

 

I wonder if ASM or Shelvey or maybe even Wilson have something similar.

[bowlingcrofty]

55 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Remember when Shearer had that clause saying he had to be top earner? Didnt we sign sign someone and his pay had to be bumped up??

 

I wonder if ASM or Shelvey or maybe even Wilson have something similar.

I was thinking that. If you had a few of them on it then it would be a sensible way of incrementally increasing the pay structure without pissing off all your best players.

[macphisto]

48 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Remember when Shearer had that clause saying he had to be top earner? Didnt we sign sign someone and his pay had to be bumped up??

 

I wonder if ASM or Shelvey or maybe even Wilson have something similar.

I wouldn't think so for ASM or Shelvey as I can't see Ashley/Justin Barnes allowing those type of clauses.

 

The only issue with ASM is that I would think when he signed that "informally" he expected to have moved on by now or been sold in the summer under Ashley where he would have received a signing-on bonus and increased wages from his new club. I'm sure players signed for us under Ashley with the understanding that we would offer them a platform to perform in the PL and would happily let them move on as long as we maid a profit on the transfer fee.

[Cronky]

9 hours ago, Lotus said:

I’m not sure they’d let him go but I think Gordon is a decent player already and has plenty of potential.

 

 

Yeah. He shows plenty of energy, determination and a bit of skill and would be a good addition to our midfield. 

 

However annoying he might be at times.

[Lotus]

1 hour ago, Ikon said:

Rather play with one man down for a season than sign Gordon. I detest him.

He has a very combative attitude and is already pretty adept at shithousery. Impressive for a 21yr old. He’s also got decent enough pace, some strength to him but more importantly, he’s got good technique and a decent reading of the game. 
I’m sure Everton fans love and with good reason.

[Cronky]

17 hours ago, macphisto said:

 

Genuine question, can you think of any players in the past, similar to Rashford, who were seen as a top young player, had a big dip, and then went on to be a top player? I'm not trying to be clever asking that question, I just can't think of anyone off the top of my head.

 

An interesting point, and it got me thinking. 

 

You sometimes get young players who burst on the scene, attract a lot of attention, but after a while some of their limitations get exposed as opposition players suss them out a bit. I think Rashford is like that - he's a good player who should have a long career at the top level, but he has some weaker areas which will limit his progress. For his sake, I hope he continues to make the sort of small, incremental improvements which all professional players need to commit to, in order to prolong their careers.

 

As for talented players who go off the rails a bit or lose focus, then I'm struggling to think of a player in that category who completely recovers their potential. George Best is the prime example. Nile Ranger could have had a much, much better career. Dele Alli seems to be at a crossroads, where he seems to have lost his focus.

 

If a player needs to make some changes in their basic personality or attitudes, then that can take a long time (same as for the rest of us) and a player's career is a short one. And if they lose that edge of fitness, the older they get, the more difficult it is to recover.

[MrRaspberryJam]

17 hours ago, macphisto said:

I hear what you're saying but he should still be putting in more of a shift in my opinion. I don't mind him being poor but it's more the lack of effort I find a concern. Look at Joelinton before Howe or further back Shearer, under Gullit, they still put in a shift even if they were out of form/out of position/problems with a manager. 

 

Genuine question, can you think of any players in the past, similar to Rashford, who were seen as a top young player, had a big dip, and then went on to be a top player? I'm not trying to be clever asking that question, I just can't think of anyone off the top of my head.

 

Forlan?

[wfmk2]

Anelka

[macphisto]

Just now, MrRaspberryJam said:

 

Forlan?

I'm not making excuses but with Forlan and others, for example Jon Dahl Tomasson, some are just not suited to certain leagues so changing countries can sometimes account for a drop in form and it is not too surprising they recover when they move to a different league.

 

Vary rare for a player to been as the "next best thing" like Rashford (he made his England debut in 2016), have a dramatic dip and then recover all in the same league. Andy Cole was mentioned, but he went from roughly one goal in every three games at Man U initially to one in every two games after a few seasons so stats wise he wasn't doing that bad when he went through a low.  I really can't think of anyone.

 

 

[macphisto]

9 minutes ago, wfmk2 said:

Anelka

As I said above, not making excuses but changing countries can often account for changes in form, both up and down. Can you think of anyone who only played in one league who went on to fulfil their potential after a drop in form like Rashford?

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by macphisto

[Nine]

Has Rashford really dipped that badly though? I dont think hes anywhere close to Alli levels of failure, looking at Rashfords numbers alone last season wasnt a bad season for him also taking into account hes been a part of a broken Man United side.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Nine

[KaKa]

Think Man United have done a poor job bringing the likes of Rashford and Martial along.

 

I think they're both players that would thrive under a more hands on manager like Howe, and so we should be keeping a close eye on their availability this summer, if Man United decide on a major overhaul.

[macphisto]

14 minutes ago, Nine said:

Has Rashford really dipped that badly though? I dont think hes anywhere close to Alli levels of failure, looking at Rashfords numbers alone last season wasnt a bad season for him also taking into account hes been a part of a broken Man United side.

 

I would say not being a regular in this Man U team is a catastrophic failure as they are terrible in relation to where they have been in the past. He's only scored 4 goals and has 2 assists. Regardless of the problems at Man U, at this stage of his career he should be doing more than enough to be starting for the team and contributing more than he has.

 

Stats wise, apart from 2019/20 and how bad he has been this season, his goals and assists have not significantly improved since he came onto the scene. 

 

To widen the discussion, I had a look at the youngest players to play for England. A good few of them burst on the scene, went downhill and none of them went onto fulfil their potential (I am only talking about the ones who had a big drop in form); looking at the list, in most cases making an England debut as youngster is a bad omen!

 

Not a flair player but the only one who stood out to me was Gareth Barry as someone who was highly regarded as a youngster, middle years were not great and then was well thought of again in the latter years of his career.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by macphisto

[The College Dropout]

Rashford was good last season. 
 

I’ve said this a lot here. No Manchester United player post Fergie stays at that club and improves their reputation.  You can name a long list of great players that have joined them and gotten worse. 
 

Rashford does need to leave before his drop is terminal.  I’d take him here but the wages would be an issue. 
 

The wages for a lot of players are an issue for motivation tbf. 

[r0cafella]

A lot of this Rashford talk belongs in NWOAT. unless someone can post a decent source of us being linked with him?

[Nine]

As far as numbers go you could make the same argument for Sterling though, he put up his best numbers in 19/20 and last season only put up about half of that (in a far better side than Rashfords to). I just feel that with Rashford his dip in form is related to the team hes been a part of rather than down to him on an individual level, a move at this point in his career might not be a bad choice for him. 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Nine

[FloydianMag]

Don’t know if this has been posted, sorry if yes

 

 

[KaKa]

Both Rashford and Martial have suffered from a lack of clarity on where to play them consistently and develop them i.e. either as out and out strikers, or out wide, on the left side.

[Kid Icarus]

36 minutes ago, macphisto said:

As I said above, not making excuses but changing countries can often account for changes in form, both up and down. Can you think of anyone who only played in one league who went on to fulfil their potential after a drop in form like Rashford?

 

 

 

 

There are tons: Andy Cole, Zaha, Huth, Luke Shaw, Lingard when he went to West Ham, Sigurdsson, Modric. Basically any player who took time to settle and ended up being class, or a player who got a move that didn't work out, then moved away and regained form. There are loads that didn't get the renaissance at the other side and just faded away as well - Dempsey, Drinkwater, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Scott Sinclair, Jeffers. 

[The Prophet]

 

[Guest HTT II]

I’d be confident under Howe not only would Rashford rediscover himself, but would become even better! I’d test the waters with a bid, Man Utd are going to need to sell a few of their players for any rebuild and he’s a sable asset they could still get decent money for.

[KaKa]

Just now, HTT II said:

I’d be confident under Howe not only would Rashford rediscover himself, but would become even better! I’d test the waters with a bid, Man Utd are going to need to sell a few of their players for any rebuild and he’s a sable asset they could still get decent money for.

 

Yup, cheeky bid for Martial too, as his loan to Sevilla has been a flop so far.

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, KaKa said:

 

Yup, cheeky bid for Martial too, as his loan to Sevilla has been a flop so far.

I’d still have him here too, some players just need a good coach more than anything. Even Dele Ali, I think someone like Howe could do wonders for him on and off the pitch. Every single player that has payed for us under Howe has improved, even if marginally, fitness wise, tactically, mentally, physically and above all else work ethic and confidence.

[Manxst]

1 minute ago, HTT II said:

I’d still have him here too, some players just need a good coach more than anything. Even Dele Ali, I think someone like Howe could do wonders for him on and off the pitch. Every single player that has payed for us under Howe has improved, even if marginally, fitness wise, tactically, mentally, physically and above all else work ethic and confidence.

And some players are just irreparable and beyond help. Dele Alli hasn’t been at the races for around 5 years now, through four manager/coaches of huge experience and calibre, all of whom haven’t been able to get him back to the form he showed as a 19-21 year old. He’s been in PL/cup games, in European games, challenging for the title, being in a relegation battle- nothing has altered his mindset or will. A coach can only do so much- as I’m sure you know, the player has to have self-reflection, and genuinely want the improvement too. 

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, Manxst said:

And some players are just irreparable and beyond help. Dele Alli hasn’t been at the races for around 5 years now, through four manager/coaches of huge experience and calibre, all of whom haven’t been able to get him back to the form he showed as a 19-21 year old. He’s been in PL/cup games, in European games, challenging for the title, being in a relegation battle- nothing has altered his mindset or will. A coach can only do so much- as I’m sure you know, the player has to have self-reflection, and genuinely want the improvement too. 

Agreed, but I’m of the opinion you can’t just give up on talent, it’s mainly down to the players themselves though and Dele Ali’s drop has been huge and I can’t see him getting back to his best!