Rafa Benítez (unemployed)

[Optimistic Nut]

When people compare the Rafa and Bruce seasons, I just think where we'd have been had Bruce taken over from McClaren and I'm guessing 35k crowds in the Championship, him making a pigs ear of promotion, and if he did manage to get us up, what he'd have done with a newly promoted team on a small budget. 

[magvicar]

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

This doesn’t align with my memories.  The last 5-6 months after we signed miggy was the best football we played under Rafa IMO. 

Agreed and I never said Rafa's football was all bad. I said it was tedious for most part.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- relegation season - style didn’t really matter.  I don’t remember how good or bad we were to be honest.  I was just looking for the points 

I had no issues with Rafa in the relegation season. He basically took on a very talented team that was basically ruined by a smug and inept manager who I rate as our worst manager ever just for the irritating smirking when he had to explain another pathetic performance.

I don't blame Rafa for taking us down but I did expect him to keep us up with 10 games to tweak that talent enough to overcome some dire teams, including Sunderland.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- promotion season - we were, if anything, a little negative for the league we were in. We achieved the objective but it was not free flowing.  

I loved that season in the championship. It was almost a breath of fresh air after the last smug manager.

I can still remember the elation of winning it on the final day.

I loved Rafa then, believe it or not and was well happy for him to carry on.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- 1st season up. We did what we had to to stay up.  Played well sometimes,   sometimes very defensive.

This is where I started to get a bit disgruntled, as the season went on but towards the latter part we started to pick up points and finished 10th with football that had me scratching my head compared to how we started off earlier in that season.

 

I just thought Rafa was stubborn in not playing a much better brand of offensive football and concentrating on the negative nearly cost us and would have if he'd never bit his lip and changed it up.

 

I still had time for Rafa, though.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 - 2nd season first half. Lots of bad luck with results.  Performances ok

Not sure about the bad luck. I'd say more reverting to type and being punished.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- 2nd season second half with miggy.  We really started to play well. With an attacking threat at last.  We didn’t have maxim yet.  Miggy gave us someone who offered something and despite the lack of goals made a huge difference to the style.

Yep we did the same thing again. Struggled and then he went back into offensive mode and we got out of the relegation struggle. But for me we didn't need to get to that point.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 We lost Rafa, signed Bruce.  Got maxim so had two good attacking threats and took a huge step backwards in style of play.

 

At first I agree and arguments can be had about whether Bruce was incompetent or he really did have to alter Rafa's set up.

I'd say Bruce had a lot of mind to change to get to his own set up and that included the fans as well as the players.

I'll say now it was the wrong appointment for two reasons.

1. He was replacing Rafa who was almost a messiah in some people's eyes but certainly a wanted manager in many people's eyes, which I think was more to do with his stance in football more than what he was offering us on the pitch...but that's just my own opinion.

 

2. Bruce came in as an ex Sunderland manager and a man who once turned us down, so on top of him replacing a sort of messiah, he walked into a bit of a cauldron.

Now I'm not exactly defending him, I'm basically saying what I believe was the case and other people will see it their way.

 

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

Using stats people compare Bruce and Rafa over Rafa’s two seasons in the league.  I think that’s totally unfair as we were a newly promoted team, building and improving.  Stats should compare the rafas last 6 months with Bruce’s time.

Most arguments against managers do come down to stats to close debates but stats don't always tell a full story as we all know.

The thing is though most people will argue and offer up stats for almost anything in a debate so we have to accept that they do play a part when marrying up players or managers or results and so on.

Was Bruce on par with Benitez?

Obviously not if we want to look back in history of other clubs managed, but this isn't about looking back to other clubs it's what was happening at Newcastle with those two, being my focus and I'd say they were as close to par over their stints, in terms of results and performances but I would definitely say I enjoyed the football under Bruce much more than I did under Rafa for most part, premier league wise.

Others may see it differently and that's fine by me.

 

 

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

Bruce’s football was poor defence.  Conceded 15-20 chances.  Prey they didn’t take them.  Hope we score on the break.

Yep, Rafa was more set up defence wise but we also struggled and got away with a lot under Rafa defensively.

Who was the better tactician defensively?

I'd say Rafa for sure but his man management seemed to come second to Bruce.

 

Imagine being defensive and counter attack not just away to difficult teams but also at home. That was Benitez.

 

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

[Cf]

13 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Agreed and I never said Rafa's football was all bad. I said it was tedious for most part.

I had no issues with Rafa in the relegation season. He basically took on a very talented team that was basically ruined by a smug and inept manager who I rate as our worst manager ever just for the irritating smirking when he had to explain another pathetic performance.

I don't blame Rafa for taking us down but I did expect him to keep us up with 10 games to tweak that talent enough to overcome some dire teams, including Sunderland.

I loved that season in the championship. It was almost a breath of fresh air after the last smug manager.

I can still remember the elation of winning it on the final day.

I loved Rafa then, believe it or not and was well happy for him to carry on.

This is where I started to get a bit disgruntled, as the season went on but towards the latter part we started to pick up points and finished 10th with football that had me scratching my head compared to how we started off earlier in that season.

 

I just thought Rafa was stubborn in not playing a much better brand of offensive football and concentrating on the negative nearly cost us and would have if he'd never bit his lip and changed it up.

 

I still had time for Rafa, though.

Not sure about the bad luck. I'd say more reverting to type and being punished.

Yep we did the same thing again. Struggled and then he went back into offensive mode and we got out of the relegation struggle. But for me we didn't need to get to that point.

At first I agree and arguments can be had about whether Bruce was incompetent or he really did have to alter Rafa's set up.

I'd say Bruce had a lot of mind to change to get to his own set up and that included the fans as well as the players.

I'll say now it was the wrong appointment for two reasons.

1. He was replacing Rafa who was almost a messiah in some people's eyes but certainly a wanted manager in many people's eyes, which I think was more to do with his stance in football more than what he was offering us on the pitch...but that's just my own opinion.

 

2. Bruce came in as an ex Sunderland manager and a man who once turned us down, so on top of him replacing a sort of messiah, he walked into a bit of a cauldron.

Now I'm not exactly defending him, I'm basically saying what I believe was the case and other people will see it their way.

 

Most arguments against managers do come down to stats to close debates but stats don't always tell a full story as we all know.

The thing is though most people will argue and offer up stats for almost anything in a debate so we have to accept that they do play a part when marrying up players or managers or results and so on.

Was Bruce on par with Benitez?

Obviously not if we want to look back in history of other clubs managed, but this isn't about looking back to other clubs it's what was happening at Newcastle with those two, being my focus and I'd say they were as close to par over their stints, in terms of results and performances but I would definitely say I enjoyed the football under Bruce much more than I did under Rafa for most part, premier league wise.

Others may see it differently and that's fine by me.

 

 

Yep, Rafa was more set up defence wise but we also struggled and got away with a lot under Rafa defensively.

Who was the better tactician defensively?

I'd say Rafa for sure but his man management seemed to come second to Bruce.

 

Imagine being defensive and counter attack not just away to difficult teams but also at home. That was Benitez.

 

 

 

You're allowed to just hold your hands up and say that you're wrong. Much better than digging and digging. 

[magvicar]

6 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

You're allowed to just hold your hands up and say that you're wrong. Much better than digging and digging. 

Wrong about what? What I think and about having an opinion?

It's not really about who is wrong and who is right, it's about the individual feeling of things that happened and things that are happening now.

 

[Chicken Dancer]

1 hour ago, magvicar said:

I'll say now it was the wrong appointment for two reasons.

3. he was a fucking shit manager who deserved to be nowhere near the Premier League, let alone Newcastle

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

1 hour ago, magvicar said:

Agreed and I never said Rafa's football was all bad. I said it was tedious for most part.....

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with a lot of that but it's all just opinions.  It's interesting hearing the debate from the other side.  

 

I was left very bitter with Bruce due to:

 

- his mates media support (I'm sure he's a nice guy 1-1 and that has worked for him)

- false Geordie claims

- being very poor when anyone questions him

- complete disregard to tactics and preparation of the team for a particular opponent

- and mostly being completely unprofessional and leaving our squad unfit for a season.  It really did look like he was looking for his 8 million.  Low salary high pay off absolutely stank of Ashley.

 

 

edit: to the point that I have more respect for Pardew and I absolutely hated him at the time.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by KetsbaiaIsBald

[kingxlnc]

Bruce was barely professional by the end. Maybe it's his weight so he's lower energy and more tired than he used to be - aka lazy - but I know amateurs whose professionalism is way way way over and above Bruce and his clan. The sheer amount of time off, even damning indictments of his own players that they were kind of told to get on with it ('lets play') and very non-detailed suggested he was really complacent and just couldn't give a toss. 

 

The charlatan mercenary nature of not caring COUPLED with the fact he claimed to be a fan in charge of his boyhood club - my God, what would the effort levels be if he had no attachment / no link to the club?! If he was a foreigner he would have been run out of the league by the media, national debates on radio and media about foreign managers getting jobs instead of British managers. 

 

Pardew was slimy and lowered expectations etc but he was still professional. 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. They knew it was a serious club and treated it as such. Even Souness who was horrid for us, you didn't question his effort, you just questioned his ability and temperament.

 

Bruce had neither the ability, nor the temperament... but worst of all, he didn't even have the effort, which surely is the bare minimum. 

Then you have his sheer cringiness of his interviews, and his seemingly invincibility in the media and management meant it just killed the spirit completely.

 

He was truly the icon for a club that stopped trying, symptomatic of its malaise and neglect, the representative of a rotting corpse. 

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

5 minutes ago, kingxlnc said:

Bruce was barely professional by the end. Maybe it's his weight so he's lower energy and more tired than he used to be - aka lazy - but I know amateurs whose professionalism is way way way over and above Bruce and his clan. The sheer amount of time off, even damning indictments of his own players that they were kind of told to get on with it ('lets play') and very non-detailed suggested he was really complacent and just couldn't give a toss. 

 

The charlatan mercenary nature of not caring COUPLED with the fact he claimed to be a fan in charge of his boyhood club - my God, what would the effort levels be if he had no attachment / no link to the club?! If he was a foreigner he would have been run out of the league by the media, national debates on radio and media about foreign managers getting jobs instead of British managers. 

 

Pardew was slimy and lowered expectations etc but he was still professional. 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. They knew it was a serious club and treated it as such. Even Souness who was horrid for us, you didn't question his effort, you just questioned his ability and temperament.

 

Bruce had neither the ability, nor the temperament... but worst of all, he didn't even have the effort, which surely is the bare minimum. 

Then you have his sheer cringiness of his interviews, and his seemingly invincibility in the media and management meant it just killed the spirit completely.

 

He was truly the icon for a club that stopped trying, symptomatic of its malaise and neglect, the representative of a rotting corpse. 

 

Yeah.  That interview with Longstaff when he talks about how depressed he was and then nearly ruined his career was so telling.  For a player to excel under the manager before and after Bruce is really telling.

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

7 minutes ago, kingxlnc said:

 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. 

 

He's still the only manager, I know of, that has refused a pay off and that includes Keegan and Robson.  

[The Prophet]

It was pretty straightforward why Bruce wasn't wanted. Nothing to do with Sunderland, it's because he was a shit, uninspiring appointment. That's all there is to it really. 

[Chicken Dancer]

4 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

It was pretty straightforward why Bruce wasn't wanted. Nothing to do with Sunderland, it's because he was a shit, uninspiring appointment. That's all there is to it really. 

 

Exactly this, and I didn't pack in my Season Ticket when Benitez left...I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a short while. A combination of the Trust's scheme and especially Bruce getting the job made me chuck a ticket I had for 16 years and over 150 points.

 

He was literally the most typical appointment of the Ashley era so I don't even know why I was surprised. Obviously I wish I still had the ticket now, but it's hard to regret something when you know at the time it was something you felt you had to do to try and initiate change.

[Nine]

There’s more to it than this but generally Rafa did a very solid job with the tools he had available, how could he not deploy a defensive style when we had Joselu as our main striker during 17/18? Rafa gets labelled as ‘negative’ because people perceive that he’s defensive under any circumstance.. that’s not the truth. Pragmatic and careful yes, but that doesn’t always equal negative. With a better squad he’d have adjusted here to a much more positive style as we had a glimpse of for 6 months or so when we signed Miggy.

[Danh1]

1 hour ago, The Prophet said:

It was pretty straightforward why Bruce wasn't wanted. Nothing to do with Sunderland, it's because he was a shit, uninspiring appointment. That's all there is to it really. 

My mates brother used to play for NUFC and was in China with the first team when Bruce was announced. He said that all of the players were laughing at the appointment. Says it all. 

[Geordie Ahmed]

4 hours ago, magvicar said:

At first I agree and arguments can be had about whether Bruce was incompetent or he really did have to alter Rafa's set up.

 

 

Nope, there is no argument to be had, Bruce was shite

 

Only an absolute doylem would suggest otherwise 

[magvicar]

5 hours ago, Chicken Dancer said:

3. he was a fucking shit manager who deserved to be nowhere near the Premier League, let alone Newcastle

He certainly wasn't anywhere near the best as a manager but he wasn't shit, otherwise he would never have managed at the levels he did.

When he came to Newcastle he came with mixed emotions among the Newcastle fan base. 

If Bruce was shit then he has to be lumped into 90% of all managers into that category and it just isn't the case.

 

He was a mixed bag for us and his tenure at the club was simply getting worse and worse and he did end up looking way below the standards he came in with, in my opinion.

 

 

[Chicken Dancer]

Just now, magvicar said:

but he wasn't shit, otherwise he would never have managed at the levels he did.

 

Come on mate, I think others have tried to reason with you and I completely respect your right to a different opinion, but he is and always was shit. I'm starting to think you might be baiting here, and fair play if so.

 

Hull? Wigan? Maybe a season at Sunderland? That's where he's done OK  in recent memory. Let's not pretend there was a queue to get him from Sheff Wed when he came here.

 

As for mixed-opinions? If by mixed you mean you against everyone else then fair enough. He was pretty much universally seen as a shit, cheap, rank appointment symbolic of our owner at the time. 

 

I'd guess 95% of the people I know support NUFC - 0% of them were in favour of the appointment. It was a shocking decision, but I don't begrudge him taking the job.

[magvicar]

5 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 

I don't agree with a lot of that but it's all just opinions.  It's interesting hearing the debate from the other side.  

 

I was left very bitter with Bruce due to:

 

- his mates media support (I'm sure he's a nice guy 1-1 and that has worked for him)

- false Geordie claims

- being very poor when anyone questions him

- complete disregard to tactics and preparation of the team for a particular opponent

- and mostly being completely unprofessional and leaving our squad unfit for a season.  It really did look like he was looking for his 8 million.  Low salary high pay off absolutely stank of Ashley.

 

 

edit: to the point that I have more respect for Pardew and I absolutely hated him at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

I can well understand your bitterness with him.

I wasn't exactly happy with the way things were going later on in his managerial time with us and you're right, his post match comments made me cringe as well.

I was never a fan of him coming but I always back a manager and any player that comes into do a job, until I have something to pick at, which Bruce did eventually give plenty but so did many a manager of Newcastle.

 

Up to now Eddie Howe is up there with the best I've seen at Newcastle and long may it continue.

 

[Kid Icarus]

Holding both the opinion that Rafa's football was tedious and Bruce wasn't shit. Name a better combo.

[magvicar]

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

Bruce was barely professional by the end.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

Maybe it's his weight so he's lower energy and more tired than he used to be - aka lazy - but I know amateurs whose professionalism is way way way over and above Bruce and his clan. The sheer amount of time off, even damning indictments of his own players that they were kind of told to get on with it ('lets play') and very non-detailed suggested he was really complacent and just couldn't give a toss.

That's definitely how it appeared.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

Pardew was slimy and lowered expectations etc but he was still professional.

I thought he did a decent job. He was a bit smug and all that but overall he did a decent job playing decent football with a decent squad of players he assembled on top of what he came into.

I had no issue with him to be fair.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. They knew it was a serious club and treated it as such. Even Souness who was horrid for us, you didn't question his effort, you just questioned his ability and temperament.

We can go right down the rabbit hole with managers and who was this or that or the other.

Even Alan Shearer as a manager for 9 games.

Some fans will simply follow the majority rule on who to hate and others will have their own take on each manager which will differ.

 

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

Bruce had neither the ability, nor the temperament... but worst of all, he didn't even have the effort, which surely is the bare minimum. 

In the end, yes. At the start, he had a lot going for him.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

Then you have his sheer cringiness of his interviews, and his seemingly invincibility in the media and management meant it just killed the spirit completely.

Yep he was cringe-worthy at times and more so towards his last season. Many professionals will have a better insight into Bruce the person than we as fans will.

We obviously see so much but are generally outside looking in with opinions garnered from all kinds of situations that arise within the club.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

He was truly the icon for a club that stopped trying, symptomatic of its malaise and neglect, the representative of a rotting corpse. 

I think that started from the top and basically seeped down.

Trying to run Newcastle United on a budget keeps the club alive among the elites but barely. Wants and control for a manager are or were generally offset by the wants and control of the hierarchy and generally issues do arise to the point of no going back.

 

Bruce was massively under pressure and he simply did make all kinds of excuses until the pressure became too much and you could see the life being drained out of him.

[Chris_R]

[magvicar]

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Come on mate, I think others have tried to reason with you and I completely respect your right to a different opinion, but he is and always was shit. I'm starting to think you might be baiting here, and fair play if so.

No reason to bait. Just my opinion and as simple as that.

You say he was shit but where does shit go in terms of managers?

Top 6 or 8 or 10 in the premier league?

Top 2 or 4 or 6 in the championship?

Top 2 or 4 in league one?

Top 2 in league two?

 

If you're putting Bruce into the premier league top 6 category then yes, most people would assume he was shit.

 

All I'm saying is, he wasn't shit and did fine with some clubs and not so fine with others but a shit manager is a manager that doesn't make it very far at all in the footballing world of professionals.

 

I'm just putting it into context.

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Hull? Wigan? Maybe a season at Sunderland? That's where he's done OK  in recent memory. Let's not pretend there was a queue to get him from Sheff Wed when he came here.

I'm not pretending anything.

I wasn't exactly overwhelmed when he was appointed and I'd guiess most fans weren't. But he was and I simply backed him rather than take the easier way and shoot at fish in a barrel.

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

As for mixed-opinions? If by mixed you mean you against everyone else then fair enough. He was pretty much universally seen as a shit, cheap, rank appointment symbolic of our owner at the time. 

Of course. Bad news travels fast so any time he screws up at whetever club then the fans immediately dislike him and he becomes shit. That happens to most managers to be fair, even those that have actually made a good fist of it at some point.

Football and fans come with fickleness and inability to be patient for too long when things don't go right.

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

I'd guess 95% of the people I know support NUFC - 0% of them were in favour of the appointment. It was a shocking decision, but I don't begrudge him taking the job.

I wasn't in favour of it either.

[magvicar]

The topic was " would you have Rafa back."

The majority consensus was no.

It tells a bigger story than just Rafa being some top manager for us, because he simply wasn't.

[TRon]

Bruce was a shit manager, being 20 plus years in the game means nothing, it just means most owners don't really know that much about football. This is getting tedious now, by all means if you want to talk him up do it in the Steve Bruce thread, but to be doing it in a thread about Rafa is basically trolling.

[Chicken Dancer]

@magvicar he had a Villa team with Grealish, Abraham et al lingering mid-table in the Championship. More recently, he took a West Brom team from pushing for the playoffs to bottom half.

 

He's got jobs for 20 years for having a decent playing career and being a relative big name in English football. Nothing to do with tactics, shape, philosophy or identity (none of these exist). He's a charlatan who quite frankly is completely finished at any capacity in football, at least at a decent level. You might see him wheeled out as Huddersfield manager in a year or two or something, but that's if he's lucky.

 

He's probably a decent enough fella to have a pint with (not for me personally) but he's pretty much despised at NUFC, SAFC, Villa & both Sheffield clubs. I'm sure there is more. The only places he's probably held in any sort of regard from his managerial career is Hull and Wigan - places where football isn't even their primary sport. Nowt against them at all but they're small clubs he had them punching above their weight, granted.

 

He should never in a million years - Ashley or not - been given the NUFC job in 2019. He's fucking shit and you know it, you just won't admit it because you've went too far and you will die on this hill now, which is fair enough. 

 

Anyways, I don't want to win this battle. I'm outty. Tell these people something they don't know about me.

[Rod]

6 hours ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Exactly this, and I didn't pack in my Season Ticket when Benitez left...I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a short while. A combination of the Trust's scheme and especially Bruce getting the job made me chuck a ticket I had for 16 years and over 150 points.

 

He was literally the most typical appointment of the Ashley era so I don't even know why I was surprised. Obviously I wish I still had the ticket now, but it's hard to regret something when you know at the time it was something you felt you had to do to try and initiate change.

Me and the wife did exactly the same.  30 years as season ticket holders.  When Rafa walked we walked but literally sprinted away when Bruce was appointed.