The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Guest]

Imagine being the executioner and finding out the life you took was actually innocent. I mean, imagine taking a life in the first place, but yeah. 

[Groundhog63]

https://innocenceproject.org/the-innocent-and-the-death-penalty/#:~:text=Eighteen people have been proven,crimes they didn't commit.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

1 hour ago, TRon said:

 

1) This is the same for any crime, there is always a chance that with human error/bias a miscarriage could take place.

2) But the world doesn't stop still, you have to prosecute criminals based on reasonable evidence, you can't just let everyone off under the premise it's not 100% foolproof evidence.

3) So then we would come to the more serious crimes which carry the most severe sentences. I would imagine you would need rock solid evidence if you are going to execute someone, or even put them away for life.

 

How do they address these questions in the US?

 

1) Some crimes don't require any intent. 

2) We are not talking about the prosecution of people but the sanction to be imposed on conviction. 

3) This just simply isn't true. A jury needs to be sure based on the evidence, sure means different things to different people. That is markedly different in Practice I suspect, to what you are imagining 'rock solid' evidence to be. Rock solid itself shows you the problem with human interpretation, it means different things to different people. 

 

In the US for every 9 people executed 1 person on Death Row has been exonerated. 

 

https://eji.org/issues/death-penalty/

 

Is worth checking out for how the US deals with these questions; in summary, badly. 

[CaliMag]

I sincerely hope that everyone going down all these rabbit holes is helping folks process this. I mean that. This is complicated and we all love the club.

[Awaymag]

1 hour ago, CaliMag said:

I sincerely hope that everyone going down all these rabbit holes is helping folks process this. I mean that. This is complicated and we all love the club.

This thread.............best represented by

 

 

[triggs]

Just to counter the "they're just jealous about Newcastle" shite.

 

 

[Tsunami]

See Exile is in like Flynn on the comments section ?.

[Happinesstan]

On 15/03/2022 at 06:19, Whitley mag said:

Good luck to the PL with that, they’d be holding football to a completely different standard to other businesses within the U.K. As the minister quite rightly said PIF invest billions in the western economy, regardless of links to the govt our current directors would pass the O&D test. The only reason Abramovich is no longer at Chelsea is govt sanctions, that’s just not happening anytime soon with Saudi Arabia.

But as a private members club, they can do that, no? 

Not saying they will, like.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Happinesstan

[madras]

7 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

But as a private members club, they can do that, no? 

Not saying they will, like.

 

 

 

Not sure they could as they are also businesses and that would bring in competition law, restraint of trade and all that stuff.

[Happinesstan]

Just now, madras said:

Not sure they could as they are also businesses and that would bring in competition law, restraint of trade and all that stuff.

Businesses that have agreed to operate within an exclusive group of similar businesses. 

[madras]

8 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Businesses that have agreed to operate within an exclusive group of similar businesses. 

Is that binding in law ?

[Happinesstan]

11 minutes ago, madras said:

Is that binding in law ?

I imagine it would be for a court of law to decide.

[TRon]

On 17/03/2022 at 17:09, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

 

1) Some crimes don't require any intent. 

2) We are not talking about the prosecution of people but the sanction to be imposed on conviction. 

3) This just simply isn't true. A jury needs to be sure based on the evidence, sure means different things to different people. That is markedly different in Practice I suspect, to what you are imagining 'rock solid' evidence to be. Rock solid itself shows you the problem with human interpretation, it means different things to different people. 

 

In the US for every 9 people executed 1 person on Death Row has been exonerated. 

 

https://eji.org/issues/death-penalty/

 

Is worth checking out for how the US deals with these questions; in summary, badly. 

 

Thnaks for that, appreciate your take on it. So despite all the miscarriages of justice in the US, they still haven't done away with capital punishment. I guess the public at large just have too much of an emotional attachment to it, and in a democracy what the people want is what goes.

[Jackie Broon]

 

22 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

I imagine it would be for a court of law to decide.

 

The point is that it's not backed up by legislation, for example the way the NHS trust fit and proper directors test is.

 

It was made pretty obvious in the ESL debacle that at least some of the PL's rules wouldn't stand up in court, which is why the government had to threaten legislation in order to stop PL clubs from joining the ESL.

[Guest HTT II]

26 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

Thnaks for that, appreciate your take on it. So despite all the miscarriages of justice in the US, they still haven't done away with capital punishment. I guess the public at large just have too much of an emotional attachment to it, and in a democracy what the people want is what goes.

And the public wants what the public gets. But I don't get what this society wants!

[Khalidao]

1 hour ago, triggs said:

Just to counter the "they're just jealous about Newcastle" shite.

 

 

 

Not really countering anything.

 

UAE is a major player in the war in Yemen. UAE has had a huge crackdown on 100s of political activists in 2012 where they were jailed without a trial. By % of population and number of crimes, UAE executes prisoners in the same rate that Saudi Arabia does. In fact just 6 months ago, they executed 5 for the murder of 1 person. None of this is regularly mentioned in the press, and I have never seen Pep Guardiola questioned about it.

 

But hey, Man City owner had tea with a dictator. Even Macron had tea with Putin. Big deal.

[TomYam]

13 minutes ago, Khalidao said:

 

Not really countering anything.

 

UAE is a major player in the war in Yemen. UAE has had a huge crackdown on 100s of political activists in 2012 where they were jailed without a trial. By % of population and number of crimes, UAE executes prisoners in the same rate that Saudi Arabia does. In fact just 6 months ago, they executed 5 for the murder of 1 person. None of this is regularly mentioned in the press, and I have never seen Pep Guardiola questioned about it.

 

But hey, Man City owner had tea with a dictator. Even Macron had tea with Putin. Big deal.

 Yes. U.A.E gets a bit of a free pass in the media because a) it's been an open commercial powerhouse for 2-3 decades and many have been enriched by those ties b) lots of instagram disciples just love topping up their tans there.

 

Saudi and U.A.E have long been joined at the hip in a big bro/little bro way, but there has been a sparating of the ways recently. Saudi wants some international commercial stardust while retaing its traditional alliances (USA, UK, EU, Kuwait, Egypt, Qatar) while U.A.E covets closer ties with China, Russia, Syria, Israel and Turkey. 

 

Vis-a-vis Yemen, my understanding is that U.A.E convinced Saudi to increase involvement there but they've backed off in attempting more cordial relations with Iran while Saudi has been left carrying the can and feels compelled to carry on in order to save face. Saudi needs to find a way out pronto.

[Yorkie]

11 minutes ago, Mowen said:

Alright gang! Long time no see. By christ it was hard work getting logged back in after 3 years. Hope some of the old people I used to knock about with on here are still going strong - the likes of Wullie, Tooj, Interpol, McBeefaz, PM, Dave, Disco* and many more I won't try to recall now.

 

Appreciate this has probably been done to death but I couldn't see anything like this to gauge sentiment after a few months. Feel free to bin this if it exists already. Intrigued as to where everyone has settled on the subject of club ownership. Hopefully the poll is pretty self explanatory but I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing with that either.

 

My personal take is I no longer consider myself a Newcastle fan. An early caveat that I don't expect that to be common, nor do I think I'm any better than anyone for making that call. Well, unless you're singing their names, then I probably do think I'm better than you. I can't get past the mental gymnastics of any success for a club just being a success for an evil regime. I'm no expert on the politics of it, but I'll back Amnesty's take on it. As much as I hated Ashley at least any victory was in spite of him rather than a victory for him.

 

It's an absolute gutter as well. I'm 36 now, grew up with the Entertainers and the club has been a huge part of my life. My cat's named after an  ex-player FFS. As much as Ashley sucked the fun out of it, I still cared. It's probably easier for me to cut ties than most as I've never been a local, my last family link living in the city passed away a couple of years ago, I stopped bothering to go under Bruce and I've had a ST at my local non-league team for about 4 years now. But it's still a hell of a change.

 

Genuinely intrigued as to where people have settled and how they've got there. Or call me a c*nt I guess, whatever floats your boat.

 

*have deliberately left Pilko out of the list as I know it'll annoy him

 

[Mowen]

Cheers lads. Feel free to merge or whatever, don't know the best bet. I think I logged out in a huff when Rafa left and never got back in!

 

I assume the prevailing opinion is people are somewhere between content and delighted. Mainly just interested to know how they balance that with what they know about the owners - obviously there will be a spectrum of views but do some people just not care about the ethics of the owners if the team is good?

 

Or how do people who do care about that but don't want to give up the club balance those two conflicting points?

[NE27]

13 minutes ago, Mowen said:

Cheers lads. Feel free to merge or whatever, don't know the best bet. I think I logged out in a huff when Rafa left and never got back in!

 

I assume the prevailing opinion is people are somewhere between content and delighted. Mainly just interested to know how they balance that with what they know about the owners - obviously there will be a spectrum of views but do some people just not care about the ethics of the owners if the team is good?

 

Or how do people who do care about that but don't want to give up the club balance those two conflicting points?

 

I just find Newcastle a very hard thing to give up supporting, I've done it since a small child and it is seemingly seared into my brain.

 

I obviously find the stories out of KSA abhorrent, sure most sane humans do. I seemingly can't cut my ties with the club but I'm not a cheerleader for the owners at all.

 

Don't take this as a parallel comparison as it's not, but the hypocrisy is the same....

 

I fucking hate animal cruelty and when I've visited the farm with the bairns I cant picture how we can slaughter animals like cows and sheep, they're lush.

 

But you better believe I forget a day later and I'm shovelling a burger in my face, just a hypocrite unfortunately.*

 

 

*I do have no meat days to try and move away from it and enjoy the better plant alternative these days, maybes I'll find something to take place of nufc in my life, dunno but you never know.

[Guest HTT II]

Mowen 

[BlueStar]

Viz artist sticking the boot in

 

 

[Kanj]

3 hours ago, NE27 said:

 

I just find Newcastle a very hard thing to give up supporting, I've done it since a small child and it is seemingly seared into my brain.

 

I obviously find the stories out of KSA abhorrent, sure most sane humans do. I seemingly can't cut my ties with the club but I'm not a cheerleader for the owners at all.

 

Don't take this as a parallel comparison as it's not, but the hypocrisy is the same....

 

I fucking hate animal cruelty and when I've visited the farm with the bairns I cant picture how we can slaughter animals like cows and sheep, they're lush.

 

But you better believe I forget a day later and I'm shovelling a burger in my face, just a hypocrite unfortunately.*

 

 

*I do have no meat days to try and move away from it and enjoy the better plant alternative these days, maybes I'll find something to take place of nufc in my life, dunno but you never know.

 

Because of my son’s absolute love of animals your *statement is exactly how we are at home w/r/t diet and such. 

[Wolfcastle]

12 hours ago, triggs said:

Just to counter the "they're just jealous about Newcastle" shite.

 

 

Well speaking of mental gymnstics - not sure how Abramovic doesn't come off worse still in that tweet. He backs the dictator Putin who props up the dictator Assad who meets with the Man City owners, which is implied to be bad and equal too the former.

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Wolfcastle

[TRon]

2 hours ago, BlueStar said:

Viz artist sticking the boot in

 

 

 

 

Fair enough tbh. Do they still run a Fat Slags page?