KingArthur Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 hours ago, KaKa said: Judging by the subs at half time I'm hoping he's realised that midfield isn't right with Tonali at the base of it. Yet again we saw a significant improvement once Bruno moved into that position. Keeps handing the initiative to teams at the start with that starting midfield lineup. Really hope tonight was a turning point. Everytime we start as we did today, and have most of the season, you can expect a poor start where the team cannot get a hold of the game, and we're under pressure. But last season we turned the corner when Tonali moved to 6. The problem is not Tonali's ability, but his form. Miley should start there now at least few games. Tonali's passing has been awful and we keep giving the ball away. He plays difficult first time passes and makes easy mistakes. When Bruno plays there there is no one playing the killer pass higher up. Tonali or Joelinton cannot do that. And when we lose the ball, we need Tonali's recovery pace. Bruno is our most press resistant player, but he also keeps losing the possession in dangerous areas because of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 6 hours ago, KingArthur said: I thought there is some sort if ignore button here. Feel free to ignore me Only teasing mate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibierski Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 hours ago, KaKa said: Judging by the subs at half time I'm hoping he's realised that midfield isn't right with Tonali at the base of it. Yet again we saw a significant improvement once Bruno moved into that position. Keeps handing the initiative to teams at the start with that starting midfield lineup. Really hope tonight was a turning point. Everytime we start as we did today, and have most of the season, you can expect a poor start where the team cannot get a hold of the game, and we're under pressure. One thing that’s pleasing whilst similar issues happening, are the wins. Rather we stumble and win whilst we eventually get it sorted, instead of losing. Game for first 60 felt like West Ham home game last season, but this time we kept it within reach (with some luck on ourside) and came out on top this time. Don’t know what Plan A* is right now for our approach to games. Only thing that’s recognisable in our play to me, is whoever is RW, they’re informed to cross at every opportunity. Rest of it just feels like winging it, which leads to games being scrappy and possession easily lost. Said before game I was surprised Ramsey didn’t start because the midfield as a collective hasn’t been solid and it was their 4th outing together in a row in a short space of time. The change at HT signalled that (just with Miley moving central and Tino on at RB). *I know what the plan is though when we play a big name side at home, and that’s a ferocious front press from word go. Full rotation of whoever didn’t start last night at weekend, with every spot for Man City game up for grabs so people can prove they deserve a start for that one. Ramsdale: Trippier, Thaiw, Botman, Tino: Miley, Willock, Ramsey: Barnes, Wolte, Murphy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbheed Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 We've struggled against teams who overload and crowd the midfield. Both Palace and Leeds have played with 7 in that midfieled area vs our 6. It took Brunos ability to evade the press and break the lines in order for us to get more control in both games. We either need to change formatio a little, or get in more players of higher technical quality who aren't as susceptible to the press. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Still high AF. What an end. What a win. Some character and balls to see us getting 3pts. Not saying owt negative, no one deserves that after last night. Great start to jan. Not massively arsed about the fa cup considering all thats going on. So hopefully some good rotation and a chance for some of the fringe to stake their claim going into the 2bd half of the season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 True Geordie et all seeing we're now 6th in the league, all but qualified in the Champions League, and in the semi-finals of the League Cup... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBG Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Liverpool win tonight and we could overtake Arsenal by the end of February Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucasol Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 5 minutes ago, 54 said: True Geordie et all seeing we're now 6th in the league, all but qualified in the Champions League, and in the semi-finals of the League Cup... No doubt whilst smeared in excrement and cuckholded by his lass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guybrush Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Got all the subs spot on, and even managed to do some before 70 mins... Eddie is mint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 hours ago, KingArthur said: But last season we turned the corner when Tonali moved to 6. The problem is not Tonali's ability, but his form. Miley should start there now at least few games. Tonali's passing has been awful and we keep giving the ball away. He plays difficult first time passes and makes easy mistakes. When Bruno plays there there is no one playing the killer pass higher up. Tonali or Joelinton cannot do that. And when we lose the ball, we need Tonali's recovery pace. Bruno is our most press resistant player, but he also keeps losing the possession in dangerous areas because of that. Bruno certainly isn't ideal or perfect in that position for some of the reasons you've stated, but he's our best bet currently. Bruno has been finding killer passes from that position even, like he did Barnes the previous game, in the lead up to Willock's awful miss. I love Miley's potential in that position too, but I don't see Howe playing him in there from the start. Bruno is our best bet as things stand as things are so dire currently when Tonali starts there. Just go back and watch the first half yesterday when our centre backs have the ball. He just jogs from side to side behind the opposition and never fights to find space or demand the ball. At one point Hall has the ball and throws his hands up in frustration at the lack of options to pass to in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingArthur Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 35 minutes ago, KaKa said: Bruno certainly isn't ideal or perfect in that position for some of the reasons you've stated, but he's our best bet currently. Bruno has been finding killer passes from that position even, like he did Barnes the previous game, in the lead up to Willock's awful miss. I love Miley's potential in that position too, but I don't see Howe playing him in there from the start. Bruno is our best bet as things stand as things are so dire currently when Tonali starts there. Just go back and watch the first half yesterday when our centre backs have the ball. He just jogs from side to side behind the opposition and never fights to find space or demand the ball. At one point Hall has the ball and throws his hands up in frustration at the lack of options to pass to in the middle. I agree in a sense that it allows Bruno to be more on the ball, but he is so slow defensively, that it becomes a problem. That would also mean dropping Tonali, cause he certainly has not offered much as a 8. He has decent cross and shooting, but he is not really a creative player. I think we could do with a young no 6 that is decent on the ball in the summer. Would allow Bruno to play higher up, but doesn't necessarily push Tonali out. Like I said, we were fine like this last season. And regarding yesterday, our midfield was outnumbered, and we were sloppy on the ball in general. Made it to easy for Leeds first half. A lot better 2nd half though. Edited January 8 by KingArthur Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) Can't fault the team's togetherness and commitment, I think there was some talk of that earlier in the season? Aggressive with his subs and made two at half time, which proved to be the right ones. The same as the rest of them, really. The first half was unacceptable and I thought was an utter shambles for 35 minutes or whatever it was. So fair play for turning it around so drastically. Coming back from behind 3 times is impressive enough. But to win it at the death is extraordinary. It's great that we've got the monkey off our back of not coming from behind to get any points. Not meaning to be a moaning prick. But I do think in some ways that late late goal has papered over a few cracks. Not that it made me enjoy it any less. I was still wired when I woke up this morning and took me forever to get to sleep last night. The same as the Palace game and to a lesser degree, Burnley. It has just shown again that when teams sit high, press us aggressively and don't give us any time. We can barely get out of our own half. As we've found out, teams can't press for 90 minutes and we will get chances to come back into the game. As we actually dominated the ball for large spells. But I feel like this has been a problem for a long while now. We can't pass round it and we just slowly go along the back line, before losing it for a throw or by blasting it long. Occasionally we'll try and pass through the lines, but it rarely works and we lose it in some bad areas. The only successful tactic seems to be trying to hit Joelinton in the middle with a sort of intermediate pass. As he often finds space and can actually hold it up back to goal. When we do get out, we often get a lot of men ahead of the ball, without much thought process of how we're going to use them or manipulate the ball and space to our advantage. We then lose it and end up facing an overload or a 3 v 3, 4 v 4 and the other team get a lot of success countering against us. There's an Airbus sized gap to exploit between where our midfield should be and the back line. It's amazing to watch in a way and I do like that we're attacking and commit numbers forward. But I do yearn for a semblance of control a lot of the while. Even though we had more possession. I actually thought for large spells when Leeds had the ball. They were far more incisive and worked openings much better than we did. Only to be wasteful or too late with the final pass. I think that happens against us more often than you'd expect for a squad with out cost and quality. I still adore the man and what he has done for the club. I don't even think there is a better fit out there or that it would be worth taking the risk even if there was. Unless we totally fell off, of course. But I feel like this season, the same old problems are being magnified a lot of the while and we don't seem any closer to figuring out how to sort them out. Or that we even want to? Maybe it's like a risk/reward thing and Howe is fine with his approach. Fuck knows, he knows a lot more than I ever will. Just frustrating seeing the same issues play out every game. Edited January 8 by Lush Vlad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Bringing Tino on and stretching them wide was the simple fix. Before that we struggled to get out against their press. After that Leeds struggled generally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duo Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 We have a 0.01% chance of finishing 1st - the title is on folks !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 22 minutes ago, duo said: We have a 0.01% chance of finishing 1st - the title is on folks !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 13 hours ago, KingArthur said: Some day we will win Dagenham and Redbridge in FA Cup 3rd round by 90+7 own goal, without a shot on target, and this thread will have people saying ”win is a win”. Hopefully. That's a ground I still need to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, KingArthur said: I agree in a sense that it allows Bruno to be more on the ball, but he is so slow defensively, that it becomes a problem. That would also mean dropping Tonali, cause he certainly has not offered much as a 8. He has decent cross and shooting, but he is not really a creative player. I think we could do with a young no 6 that is decent on the ball in the summer. Would allow Bruno to play higher up, but doesn't necessarily push Tonali out. Like I said, we were fine like this last season. And regarding yesterday, our midfield was outnumbered, and we were sloppy on the ball in general. Made it to easy for Leeds first half. A lot better 2nd half though. We've got to move past last season. We are now over halfway into the new season. I've seen enough of Tonali in that position this season. It has not worked and it is not working. It's bad going forward and even the previous defensive upside of that setup is no longer evident as the team is inviting so much pressure by not being able to manage any kind of consistent build up or control of the game. Any game we continue to start that way is just going to be an uphill battle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingArthur Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Skeletor said: Bringing Tino on and stretching them wide was the simple fix. Before that we struggled to get out against their press. After that Leeds struggled generally. Problem first half was also that we forced it forward too early. I dont really get why we hit long to Gordon towards the corner so early that there is only Wolte and maybe Barnes 40-50 metres away on the otherside. Gordon is not going to do anything but lose the ball there. Few passes and move the opponent around, not just full on forward everytime you get the ball. But subs made a big impact and FINALLY we have a bench that can change games. Would still like Wolte and Wissa together, maybe some day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingArthur Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 19 minutes ago, KaKa said: We've got to move past last season. We are now over halfway into the new season. I've seen enough of Tonali in that position this season. It has not worked and it is not working. It's bad going forward and even the previous defensive upside of that setup is no longer evident as the team is inviting so much pressure by not being able to manage any kind of consistent build up or control of the game. Any game we continue to start that way is just going to be an uphill battle. Yea, but we are playing pretty much the similar way. Tonali cannot be effective for us in any other position than no 6/ deepest of the 3. He doesn't have enough attacking qualities and can pretty much only play simple passes. He cannot receive the ball in tight spaces and is not a big goal threat. Yes, he has been poor for a while now, but was excellent against City defensively for example. Moving him higher up the pitch just moves our problems to another part of the pitch. We tried with Bruno as 6 and it didn't work either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 EH is a fantastic manager of players and obvs a very fastidious coach. However, we do not look like a well coached team atm. I’m not saying we aren’t well coached, but it is not apparent yet pretty much all season apart from over running a couple of teams. I’ve no idea if the style we are trying to implement needs changing or that the players are just not consistently applying EH’s instructions. There was some fluidity to our movement last night when we got in and around the box. That looked good and having Hall and Gordon pop up in unusual positions could be a good way to open teams up. It was apparent though that when we lost the ball that fluidity meant they (and quite a few other ‘lesser’ teams this season) could waltz up the pitch towards our area practically unchallenged. That really, really needs addressing. It is happening so often. WRT fluidity, seems a bit damned if you do, damned if you don’t for us currently. I have a horrible feeling a big issue could be Woltemade. He’s good when he comes deep for the ball but we don’t often put runners in the position he vacated. And if he stays high he’s more or less out of the game without Isak’s ability to nick a goal that didn’t look on for anyone else. Seems like an assist machine though which is awesome. Perhaps this is just a transition season and we have to take what we can from it and look forward to what we could turn into next season. We’ll need some type of European football. By March we should have an idea whether that’s on or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duo Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Simon Jordon back tracking on what he said about Eddie - fair play to Jim White for calling him out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Should we get a CDM this month? Easier said than done of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Butcher Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Should've got one 4 years ago. It's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRC Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 hours ago, Lotus said: EH is a fantastic manager of players and obvs a very fastidious coach. However, we do not look like a well coached team atm. I’m not saying we aren’t well coached, but it is not apparent yet pretty much all season apart from over running a couple of teams. I’ve no idea if the style we are trying to implement needs changing or that the players are just not consistently applying EH’s instructions. There was some fluidity to our movement last night when we got in and around the box. That looked good and having Hall and Gordon pop up in unusual positions could be a good way to open teams up. It was apparent though that when we lost the ball that fluidity meant they (and quite a few other ‘lesser’ teams this season) could waltz up the pitch towards our area practically unchallenged. That really, really needs addressing. It is happening so often. WRT fluidity, seems a bit damned if you do, damned if you don’t for us currently. I have a horrible feeling a big issue could be Woltemade. He’s good when he comes deep for the ball but we don’t often put runners in the position he vacated. And if he stays high he’s more or less out of the game without Isak’s ability to nick a goal that didn’t look on for anyone else. Seems like an assist machine though which is awesome. Perhaps this is just a transition season and we have to take what we can from it and look forward to what we could turn into next season. We’ll need some type of European football. By March we should have an idea whether that’s on or not. Agree with this. I think this summer we need to really review what direction the club is going in and everyone needs to be on board. This summer everything was all over the place due to the Isak situation and has resulted in us signing players for different styles of play which is probably tricky for Howe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collage Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 5 hours ago, duo said: We have a 0.01% chance of finishing 1st - the title is on folks !! Wtf is that According to that the title to Arsenal is pretty much done. They lead by 5 points with half the season left... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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