The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[HaydnNUFC]

Understand if this is whataboutery™  but where is the fewm at Guardiola and where are the questions being posed to him about the UAE? He's been at Man City for nigh on 6 years and I can't remember a single question about what goes on in the UAE being asked being put to him.

[triggs]

4 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

Understand if this is whataboutery™  but where is the fewm at Guardiola and where are the questions being posed to him about the UAE? He's been at Man City for nigh on 6 years and I can't remember a single question about what goes on in the UAE being asked being put to him.

He seems untouchable for some reason. So much so that he seems to think the Man City owners aren't even dodgy

[Wullie]

8 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

Understand if this is whataboutery™  but where is the fewm at Guardiola and where are the questions being posed to him about the UAE? He's been at Man City for nigh on 6 years and I can't remember a single question about what goes on in the UAE being asked being put to him.

He got quite a lot of flak for a brief period after he wore a ribbon in support of Catalan political prisoners, being asked about the same in UAE.

[Fantail Breeze]

3 minutes ago, Wullie said:

He got quite a lot of flak for a brief period after he wore a ribbon in support of Catalan political prisoners, being asked about the same in UAE.

 

Sort of proves the point like. A brief bit of flack vs it being mentioned every five seconds relentlessly for us.

 

Man City as a club tend to get praised at every opportunity.

 

I have no problem with it being a topic of conversation, it’s a very important one. But lets at least be consistent with our finger pointing.

[HaydnNUFC]

5 minutes ago, Wullie said:

He got quite a lot of flak for a brief period after he wore a ribbon in support of Catalan political prisoners, being asked about the same in UAE.

 

Fair enough. Only found a handful of articles from 2018. Nowt since. And on Glendenning, I suppose him being a mackem plays a part in this, given he's not once had a go at Guardiola for working at Man City but is going all out on Howe.

 

https://twitter.com/search?q=Guardiola OR Pep OR UAE OR Man City from%3Abglendenning&src=typed_query&f=live

[triggs]

Tbf Tariq Panja and Miguel Delaney have been writing about City for years

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, triggs said:

Tbf Tariq Panja and Miguel Delaney have been writing about City for years

 

I know. Just the latest hot take in this topic from the worst website ever was from Glendenning.

[Joey Linton]

4 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

And on Glendenning, I suppose him being a mackem plays a part in this, given he's not once had a go at Guardiola for working at Man City but is going all out on Howe.

If we were 20th in the table he'd not be suggesting Howe should quit. 

[dave s]

everyone just picks up on nufc and calls it sportswashing as it’s news worthy, and topical. fact is they should be popping at the government from when teresa welcomed them with open arms as part of the vision 2030 initiative to wash everything they have here in uk 

 

https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/mena/65-billion-investment-in-britain-unlocked-by-saudi-crown-prince-1.711508

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-companies-to-benefit-from-uk-saudi-trade

 

 

[TheInfiniteOdyssey]

I've been struggling with this more have to admit, there's always the gnawing feeling that everything comes with a caveat.

 

I will say that due to the nature of football's tribalism, it has produced and will continue to produce rhetoric that is profoundly insincere on the topic. Be it our fans who seem obliged to defend the Saudi justice system, despite (likely) having no interest and any genuine belief in what they're saying, or fans from other clubs that have now suddenly developed a forensic interest in Saudi transgressions since we became the richest club in the world.

 

I envisage the majority of fans from other clubs would no doubt have had a some passive-like opposition to Saudi crimes and lack of conformity to western freedoms before we were taken over, yet now post-takeover, that lens has widened and magnified, likely because their opposition now needs to be real and immediate, because it threatens the status of the clubs they support. I think that's to be expected.

 

What is difficult to understand and what provokes a natural tribalistic streak in me personally, is the apparent double-standards of the media, who have effectively normalized this scenario through years of covering Chelsea and Man City's successes with very little introspection. The latter has had some, but the overriding cultural touchstones that the media immortalized in the public's conscious remain Aguero's winner, Pep's style of football, than anything else.

 

Even a cursory look at any Chelsea - Newcastle match report from the last decade or so, seems to completely omit Abramovich's influence on why the fixture was so hopelessly imbalanced on the pitch (for the most part). There's was no genuine will to examine it, until now, when a recently transformed geopolitical context demands it. 

 

 

[Thiago]

Here's the sad truth - we're all hypocrites. 

 

Glendennig works for Talksport. They're owned by Rupert Murdoch. Is that aspiring to journalistic integrity? When Murdoch took over Colin Murray resigned out of principle, and yet there was Glendennig to fill the void and cash the cheque. At least I was supporting this team when it was owned by Sir John Hall and not PIF. He took a job knowing who he was climbing into bed with. 

 

Delaney's newspaper is owned by Saudi and Russian money. And yet, apparently it's all good because he writes a few critical op-eds now and again. He - along with his colleagues - will also pitch up at Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge, and play in these media games. Is that journalistic integrity? I remember learning that you're not supposed to take any gifts to maintain your objectivity. 

 

Did they ask Steve Bruce or Rafa Benitez what he thought about Mike Ashley running sweat shops? 

 

I will never ever attempt to justify Saudi Arabia, its regime, or its human rights atrocities. We need that conversation, we need it regularly, and we need to have our decision makers involved to find a genuine solution because the horse has escaped the paddock here. Saudi and countries like it are involved in business and we need to figure out what we as a country do about that and accept. 

 

What I'm fast tiring of is this performative bullshit. You're not Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein when you ask Eddie Howe why he took a job. He took the job the same reason you did, because you had bills to pay and you didn't feel it was your responsibility. 

[Comegetasample]

36 minutes ago, WarrenBartonCentrePartin said:

People in the replies asking exactly what he wants Howe to say. He wants him to resign ?

 

 

 

He's a complete wanker.

 

Disingenuous centrist bullshit spouts from his twitter and the Guardian footy podcast almost daily, i struggle to listen to it now, the pearl clutching and naval gazing is almost too much.

 

I can say with a real feeling of certainty that he DOES NOT care about the people in Yemen or any other victims of oppression, be that at the hands of the Saudis or any other totalitarian state. He just cares that it's US, and the energy he (and alot of the other mainstream journos) give to it in comparison to other injustices only solidifies my belief.

 

They all covered the Russian world cup, seemingly had no problem with Chelsea or City and will cover the Qatar world cup. They ask ordinary working class football fans to be the barometer of morality and a litmus test for geopolitics. They will accuse you of "whataboutery" if you apply any form of scrutiny to their records or if you ask them to do the same and they'll gaslight you and say your doing the Saudis work when your defending your fellow fans or club. 

 

We had a choice at the last election with regards to football, one was mandated fan ownership of football clubs, subsidized tickets and a ceasing of arms sales and diplomatic closeness with  Saudi Arabia. The country, and dare i say most of these journos, voted for what we have right now, they haven't got a fucking leg to stand on. 

 

I can't vote for who owns my football club but i can support it no matter what, and i refuse to let middle class journos who live in London tell me where my morality should start and end when they refuse to apply the same scrutiny to The Premier League or the British Government. 

 

 

 

[Yorkie]

@TheInfiniteOdyssey @Thiago 

 

Tbf I don't blame any journalist for asking Howe the question. It's not a bad thing that Saudi Arabia's horrors are being revealed, scrutinised and condemned; meanwhile, if Eddie Howe publicly expresses a view then that's instantly a story in itself. 

 

As for Glendenning, he's a journalist on Twitter on the wind up. 

[Stottie]

The Guardian has regularly defended Tony Blair over Iraq and hundreds of thousands dead, but couldn't lay into Corbyn hard enough over perceived anti-Semitism.

Their refusal to support Corbyn, especially in 2017 led to the current shitshow of a hard Brexit (=Russian foreign policy) and tens of thousands of extra deaths from Covid.

This happened because the center left is just as divisive and intolerant as the far left.

 

[OverThere]

Is it true that he (Glendinning) is a Mackem and this is the true source of his "outrage"

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by OverThere

[Sima]

8 minutes ago, OverThere said:

Is it true that he (Glendinning) is a Mackem and this is the true source of his "outrage"

 

 

 

He’s just a Fleet Street Exile[insertnumbers]. If we were still rooted to the bottom of the table winless he would barely give a fuck.

[leffe186]

6 hours ago, Thiago said:

Here's the sad truth - we're all hypocrites. 

 

Glendennig works for Talksport. They're owned by Rupert Murdoch. Is that aspiring to journalistic integrity? When Murdoch took over Colin Murray resigned out of principle, and yet there was Glendennig to fill the void and cash the cheque. At least I was supporting this team when it was owned by Sir John Hall and not PIF. He took a job knowing who he was climbing into bed with. 

 

Delaney's newspaper is owned by Saudi and Russian money. And yet, apparently it's all good because he writes a few critical op-eds now and again. He - along with his colleagues - will also pitch up at Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge, and play in these media games. Is that journalistic integrity? I remember learning that you're not supposed to take any gifts to maintain your objectivity. 

 

Did they ask Steve Bruce or Rafa Benitez what he thought about Mike Ashley running sweat shops? 

 

I will never ever attempt to justify Saudi Arabia, its regime, or its human rights atrocities. We need that conversation, we need it regularly, and we need to have our decision makers involved to find a genuine solution because the horse has escaped the paddock here. Saudi and countries like it are involved in business and we need to figure out what we as a country do about that and accept. 

 

What I'm fast tiring of is this performative bullshit. You're not Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein when you ask Eddie Howe why he took a job. He took the job the same reason you did, because you had bills to pay and you didn't feel it was your responsibility. 

Bravo. Although I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, we’re not all hypocrites. I’ve been done with this whole thing for a while now, and it sounds like Triggs is too.

 

You really do have a choice. Of course I’ll always be a Spurs fan at heart and when I look at the scores I’ll be happy when we win and sad when we lose, but I’m out for the most part. Barely even watch football any more. My heart’s broken.

 

Not trying to be holier-than-thou, honestly, just it seems like sometimes people act like they don’t have a choice. You don’t have a choice whether to support Newcastle in your heart or not, but you do have a choice in what you do about it.

[Froggy]

36 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Barely even watch football any more

 

Isn't really a choice for a lot of people. I'd struggle to go on without it.

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, Froggy said:

 

Isn't really a choice for a lot of people. I'd struggle to go on without it.

That’s why God made the NFL

[Kid Icarus]

2 hours ago, leffe186 said:

Bravo. Although I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, we’re not all hypocrites. I’ve been done with this whole thing for a while now, and it sounds like Triggs is too.

 

You really do have a choice. Of course I’ll always be a Spurs fan at heart and when I look at the scores I’ll be happy when we win and sad when we lose, but I’m out for the most part. Barely even watch football any more. My heart’s broken.

 

Not trying to be holier-than-thou, honestly, just it seems like sometimes people act like they don’t have a choice. You don’t have a choice whether to support Newcastle in your heart or not, but you do have a choice in what you do about it.

 

 

I think there are a few points to make about what you're saying here like. 

First, you're saying 'you really do have a choice' but so did Meryl Streep in Sophie's Choice. That's not to trivialise or in any way draw a direct comparison, it's just to make an extreme point about the scope of there being an actual choice for most fans - i.e in reality they don't have a choice and couldn't walk away if they wanted to or tried to. Sportswashing works because they're worming their way into institutions they know people have deep, mostly irreversable emotional connections with. 

 

Second, the way you describe your situation, it doesn't sound like you chose either and got to the point of walking away naturally -  and similar to those that can't walk away because their hearts are tied to NUFC, you walked away because your heart was broken and didn't have those strong ties anymore. That's not a criticism or anything, I just think, well rather I know that it's not as simple as making a choice. If I walk away - something that I don't think is out of the question in the coming years - it'll be in the same way that I think you have - because I'll have been a passenger to how a feel, not because I made a moral choice against my will.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[St. Maximin]

The fans who feel obliged to now defend Saudi Arabia are just idiots and not really people we need to focus on. Every club has idiots in their fan base and luckily I don’t think the actions of these are cause for major ‘sportswashing’ concerns. They’re a small minority and aren’t bringing about major change in KSA’s reputation here. To do that KSA will simultaneously need to keep changing its laws over time too. 
 

Fwiw I still feel a bit uncomfortable about this and leaving aside human rights comparisons with the other countries, our connection to a state is even closer than Man City’s and Chelsea’s.
 

However, I also don’t feel I have to apologise for the Saudis as a conflicted fan, to criticise their human rights record whenever we score a goal or publicly concern myself with our Saudi apologist fans etc. I also don’t feel we have to hate everything about them - we talk about how ‘evil’ our owners are but they’re an investment fund that accumulated wealth through oil. I don’t get the impression that people who order the execution of people without fair trial are also involved in the day to day running of our club. Maybe that’s me being sportswashed then, but I can’t lie and say I don’t enjoy their involvement in our club. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Didn’t the head of PIF have a journalist murdered, dismembered and smuggled out of an embassy in bags? 
 

Good post in general though, IMO we don’t have any need to defend Saudi and what they do. As Chelsea are finding out, fans have no say over their owner and really the club is just a pawn. Just lucky for some clubs that they get on-field success in the process. 

[Kanj]

I think St Max is saying Yasir isn’t running the Gov. 

[St. Maximin]

7 minutes ago, Kanji said:

I think St Max is saying Yasir isn’t running the Gov. 

On those lines aye. I don’t really know much about the PIF power structure. I know MBS is the chair so that makes things a bit more awkward… but not sure how much day to day involvement he has in PIF, let alone us! It’s a state-owned entity that employs civil servants to invest in different industries to help develop and diversify the Saudi economy. Sure they’re not all nasty blokes!

 

Saying that if Bin Salman directly bought us and called all the shots, I’d certainly feel less comfortable. But that’s not essentially the case here right…?

[Doctor Zaius]

A Saudi flag in the away en d yesterday. I was three knackers walking past the club shop with one V Brighton.

 

Thick as fuck man. Leave it out.