Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Kasper]

I'll watch the start of the second half later again but I'd bet decent money that we're not any deeper by default. Obviously you're pushed back if you keep loosing the ball and opposition finds space in your defense and manages to keep posession.

 

I think you're just very wrong on this one.

[STM]

I'm not having that like. We were worse in the second half but I don't think Rafa changed anything and I stand by that.

 

I was openly critical of him not changing things before they scored, as you could see it coming and also critical of his decision not to bring Murphy on.

 

Other than that, I don't think he could have done anything differently.

 

Edit: What Kaspar said.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I think we could had opened up vs Swansea mind.  Their first 11 was worse than ours on paper, probably the only time that's happened this season.

 

You saw what happened at the end of the second half though? We lost the ball in a dangerous area and nearly conceded because we didn't have the quality to maintain the pressure.

 

Oh come on for fuck sake man. We didn’t have the quality to maintain pressure? Have you heard yourself, seriously? We pressured the fuck out of them in the first half man. They were and are piss poor, worse than us, much worse. We may have lost the ball and they may have scored from it but that’s got fuck all to do with us not having quality to pressure them. Sometimes on a game that can happen. We did the same to Man City, did they lack the quality to maintain pressure?

 

It’s quite simple, we stopped playing the way we did on the first half which saw us get lots of joy and had we kept playing that way, we would have ran out comfortable winners. We inexplicably stopped playing that way because Rafa in his wisdom thought we would be able to nick it on the counter or draw them out. And then they scored and we had to change it again and then it become a game of cat and mouse. We get an equaliser and what do we do? We settle for not losing.

 

Trust his players much? Does he fuck, well sorry, but I don’t trust you Rafa at home. The points lost don’t lie.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'll watch the start of the second half later again but I'd bet decent money that we're not any deeper by default. Obviously you're pushed back if you keep loosing the ball and opposition finds space in your defense and manages to keep posession.

 

I think you're just very wrong on this one.

 

We definately dropped back and off. They didn’t force that on us. It’s a common theme of ours at home man so no need to rewatch or think this is an isolated thing. On.y thing is we usually do it from the start. We did it after the break this time. Inexplicable and baffling really.

[STM]

Most of the points we have lost are down to the lack of quality in the squad, not Rafa's tactics. We'd be in Swansea's position without Rafa's tactics.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'm not having that like. We were worse in the second half but I don't think Rafa changed anything and I stand by that.

 

I was openly critical of him not changing things before they scored, as you could see it coming and also critical of his decision not to bring Murphy on.

 

Other than that, I don't think he could have done anything differently.

 

Edit: What Kaspar said.

 

You cannot be serious. We were the total opposite in the second half man. You say Swansea forced that. Bull shit. They didn’t and even if they did we did fuck all to counter it and were happy to sit in there and contain and protect. Either way it was bull shit nonsense at home to a worse side than us who again wee wasting time from minute one happy to get a point. This sums up their adventure. 45 minutes they get a corner and they take an absolute age to take it. There was little chance of us breaking from it but they didn’t want to just send it in and take a chance. They couldn’t wait for that whistle. WE invited them back into the game by dropping off, not pressing and launching it long. Basically the opposite to what we did in the first half where we carved the, open, they couldn’t get out and we created chance almost after chance or opportunities.

[Kasper]

Just wake up for a minute and think. Why on earth would Rafa tell them to stop playing the way they did first half? Swansea wasn't dangerous at all, there was no need to change to a more defensive approach. If you're argument is that Rafa would settle for a point then we could've played the same way we did first half. We were very compact already. You're argument is that Rafa is a complete moron.

 

Why do you think he made these "changes"? Quotes because it didnt happen.

[mighty__mag]

Most of the points we have lost are down to the lack of quality in the squad, not Rafa's tactics. We'd be in Swansea's position without Rafa's tactics.

 

Naa, thats totally naive. And almost sounds like a Rafa infatuation.

 

Collectively we they are responsible as a whole.I have heard Benitez cant rember the fixture but admits he got it wrong.

We could have done more yesterday, we didnt, but we also didnt lose.

[STM]

Most of the points we have lost are down to the lack of quality in the squad, not Rafa's tactics. We'd be in Swansea's position without Rafa's tactics.

 

Naa, thats totally naive. And almost sounds like a Rafa infatuation.

 

Collectively we they are responsible as a whole.I have heard Benitez cant rember the fixture but admits he got it wrong.

We could have done more yesterday, we didnt, but we also didnt lose.

 

I never said hes perfect. Just slightly more perfect than most of our fans.

 

HTT, calm down man. I like your posts, I just happen to disagree with you on this one.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Just wake up for a minute and think. Why on earth would Rafa tell them to stop playing the way they did first half? Swansea wasn't dangerous at all, there was no need to change to a more defensive approach. If you're argument is that Rafa would settle for a point then we could've played the same way we did first half. We were very compact already. You're argument is that Rafa is a complete moron.

 

Why do you think he made these "changes"? Quotes because it didnt happen.

 

So they just decided to play that way or Swansea forced us into playing that way then is that it? I was there and saw Rafa telling the players to keep it, Lascelles telling the keeper to keep a hold of it, Rafa instructing Perez to go deeper. As soon as the whistle went we dropped back deeper and stopped pressing. Again this isn’t a one off, we usually start that way at home, only we started that way second half this time. It’s s if because we didn’t score first half Rafa decided a different approach. Again this sums up Rafa. He didn’t trust the team to keep going in the same vein and getting reward so decided he’d try a different way, a way which let Swansea back into it and to take the lead. Then he had to make a change which did work, but by then it was a case of oh well, a point is better than a loss.

[Kasper]

I'm not having that like. We were worse in the second half but I don't think Rafa changed anything and I stand by that.

 

I was openly critical of him not changing things before they scored, as you could see it coming and also critical of his decision not to bring Murphy on.

 

Other than that, I don't think he could have done anything differently.

 

Edit: What Kaspar said.

 

You cannot be serious. We were the total opposite in the second half man. You say Swansea forced that. Bull shit. They didn’t and even if they did we did fuck all to counter it and were happy to sit in there and contain and protect. Either way it was bull shit nonsense at home to a worse side than us who again wee wasting time from minute one happy to get a point. This sums up their adventure. 45 minutes they get a corner and they take an absolute age to take it. There was little chance of us breaking from it but they didn’t want to just send it in and take a chance. They couldn’t wait for that whistle. WE invited them back into the game by dropping off, not pressing and launching it long. Basically the opposite to what we did in the first half where we carved the, open, they couldn’t get out and we created chance almost after chance or opportunities.

 

You're talking complete crap man. They had lots of posession in the first half. Actually they had more in the first half than second.

 

Almost all our chances in the first half came from them just passing it around and eventually making a mistake. It wasnt a relentless pressure you're describing at all. We were patient, waiting for the chance to win the ball and going direct when we did. Nothing changed in our tactical approach.

[Kasper]

Just wake up for a minute and think. Why on earth would Rafa tell them to stop playing the way they did first half? Swansea wasn't dangerous at all, there was no need to change to a more defensive approach. If you're argument is that Rafa would settle for a point then we could've played the same way we did first half. We were very compact already. You're argument is that Rafa is a complete moron.

 

Why do you think he made these "changes"? Quotes because it didnt happen.

 

So they just decided to play that way or Swansea forced us into playing that way then is that it? I was there and saw Rafa telling the players to keep it, Lascelles telling the keeper to keep a hold of it, Rafa instructing Perez to go deeper. As soon as the whistle went we dropped back deeper and stopped pressing. Again this isn’t a one off, we usually start that way at home, only we started that way second half this time. It’s s if because we didn’t score first half Rafa decided a different approach. Again this sums up Rafa. He didn’t trust the team to keep going in the same vein and getting reward so decided he’d try a different way, a way which let Swansea back into it and to take the lead. Then he had to make a change which did work, but by then it was a case of oh well, a point is better than a loss.

 

He didn't trust them to keep going the same way? What are you on about? We played a very compact shape first half and they never looked like scoring from anything other than a set piece.

 

The argument that Rafa wanted to make us more defensive after half time is just mind bogglingly stupid.

[STM]

Just wake up for a minute and think. Why on earth would Rafa tell them to stop playing the way they did first half? Swansea wasn't dangerous at all, there was no need to change to a more defensive approach. If you're argument is that Rafa would settle for a point then we could've played the same way we did first half. We were very compact already. You're argument is that Rafa is a complete moron.

 

Why do you think he made these "changes"? Quotes because it didnt happen.

 

So they just decided to play that way or Swansea forced us into playing that way then is that it? I was there and saw Rafa telling the players to keep it, Lascelles telling the keeper to keep a hold of it, Rafa instructing Perez to go deeper. As soon as the whistle went we dropped back deeper and stopped pressing. Again this isn’t a one off, we usually start that way at home, only we started that way second half this time. It’s s if because we didn’t score first half Rafa decided a different approach. Again this sums up Rafa. He didn’t trust the team to keep going in the same vein and getting reward so decided he’d try a different way, a way which let Swansea back into it and to take the lead. Then he had to make a change which did work, but by then it was a case of oh well, a point is better than a loss.

 

He didn't trust them to keep going the same way? What are you on about? We played a very compact shape first half and they never looked like scoring from anything other than a set piece.

 

The argument that Rafa wanted to make us more defensive after half time is just mind bogglingly stupid.

 

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'm not having that like. We were worse in the second half but I don't think Rafa changed anything and I stand by that.

 

I was openly critical of him not changing things before they scored, as you could see it coming and also critical of his decision not to bring Murphy on.

 

Other than that, I don't think he could have done anything differently.

 

Edit: What Kaspar said.

 

You cannot be serious. We were the total opposite in the second half man. You say Swansea forced that. Bull s***. They didn’t and even if they did we did f*** all to counter it and were happy to sit in there and contain and protect. Either way it was bull s*** nonsense at home to a worse side than us who again wee wasting time from minute one happy to get a point. This sums up their adventure. 45 minutes they get a corner and they take an absolute age to take it. There was little chance of us breaking from it but they didn’t want to just send it in and take a chance. They couldn’t wait for that whistle. WE invited them back into the game by dropping off, not pressing and launching it long. Basically the opposite to what we did in the first half where we carved the, open, they couldn’t get out and we created chance almost after chance or opportunities.

 

You're talking complete crap man. They had lots of posession in the first half. Actually they had more in the first half than second.

 

Almost all our chances in the first half came from them just passing it around and eventually making a mistake. It wasnt a relentless pressure you're describing at all. We were patient, waiting for the chance to win the ball and going direct when we did. Nothing changed in our tactical approach.

 

It wasn’t relentless no, but it was constant getting at them or trying to. Their keeper for example never had time on the ball. Shelvey, Gayle, Perez, Diame, Ritchie and Atsu were camped in their half constantly nicking the ball due to pressing and we were often a man up running at them. They couldn’t get out basically and started launching it long which Clarke and Lascelles gobbled up.

[Tsunami]

I seem to remember a good number of home games last year where we adopted similar defense first tactics and got away with it as we were up against Championship sides; it cost us quite a few dropped points at home. We scrapped past some very poor sides by the odd goal.

 

Nobody is wanting us to throw caution to the wind but there are some opponents in the PL where you need to be more positive. We’re predictable at home; it causes unrest in the crowd and eventually a fear of losing out on the pitch. Opposing managers must love playing us away, good sides pick us off and poor sides know that we won’t put them away and that at some point they will get into the game. Without us buying a goal scorer or changing the set up at home we’re going to struggle to collect enough points at home to be safe.

 

Forget it’s Rafa, look at the results and performances. If we go down it will be home performances that will have cost us and a stubbornness to change. We’ve got some right numpties in the crowd but we’ve also got fans who can see what we’re trying to do but can also see that’s it’s simply not working. I’d take a couple of 1-3 or 4 reverses at home to some mid/ lower table sides if it also meant a couple of likewise favourable results. It’s points we need ahead of goal difference. I’m wondering if the Watford home game has got Rafa simply refusing to try anything else.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Just wake up for a minute and think. Why on earth would Rafa tell them to stop playing the way they did first half? Swansea wasn't dangerous at all, there was no need to change to a more defensive approach. If you're argument is that Rafa would settle for a point then we could've played the same way we did first half. We were very compact already. You're argument is that Rafa is a complete moron.

 

Why do you think he made these "changes"? Quotes because it didnt happen.

 

So they just decided to play that way or Swansea forced us into playing that way then is that it? I was there and saw Rafa telling the players to keep it, Lascelles telling the keeper to keep a hold of it, Rafa instructing Perez to go deeper. As soon as the whistle went we dropped back deeper and stopped pressing. Again this isn’t a one off, we usually start that way at home, only we started that way second half this time. It’s s if because we didn’t score first half Rafa decided a different approach. Again this sums up Rafa. He didn’t trust the team to keep going in the same vein and getting reward so decided he’d try a different way, a way which let Swansea back into it and to take the lead. Then he had to make a change which did work, but by then it was a case of oh well, a point is better than a loss.

 

He didn't trust them to keep going the same way? What are you on about? We played a very compact shape first half and they never looked like scoring from anything other than a set piece.

 

The argument that Rafa wanted to make us more defensive after half time is just mind bogglingly stupid.

 

So why the complete opposite in the second half? Don’t give me that shite about Swansea changing their game. We actually settled into a deeper formation and started dropping off from pressing and started launching it long. A clear tactic, approach and game plan.

 

Why? Truthfully? This is Rafa all over. We didn’t score in the first half so he changed things believing a different approach would get us our rewards in the second half. This is him all over not trusting the players to just keep doing what they did in the first half so he changed it.

 

He probably though well let’s let them have more of the ball, let’s draw them onto us and we will catch them on the break.

 

Nowt wrong with that, but everything wrong with that when we were doing just fine the way we were set up in the first half. Again it was a matter of keep going and the goal would come.

 

What we did in the second half was give Swansea a way back in and they took their chance and scored and that changed things even more and worse so for us. That tactic of breaking away had to be tossed aside with removing Gaylor for Joselu.

 

He scored, but after that it was again a case of well lots not lose. A point is better than none.

 

Rafa I adore, I love him, he’s a great coach and manager and the best thing about us, but at home, he’s stifling us and it’s no coincidence that our home form is piss poor and we struggle to beat teams like Swansea who by the way are worse than us and that’s because Rafa doesn’t trust his players and seems unable to let the game flow. He HAS to intervene, to change things and although it’s not without merit, it’s not helping is it because we keep dropping points or struggle to beat teams at home. Away from home it’s fine, and works. At home it doesn’t.

 

There is a real myopia about Rafa and our players and it’s wrong. That second half was inexplicable and baffling and cost us a win. If you don’t want to accept that, fine, you’ve argued your points well. Me, I’m proactive. They come it at half time nd I say keep going. Keep doing what you’re doing and you will score and they will fold like a pack of cards.

 

First half the fans were upbeat and very positive, second half they were cagey, frustrated and not happy at all. That’s because of The way we approached the second half, the tactics and our seemingly happiness at accepting a point.

 

At home.

To Swansea.

Who were...

Happy with a point

From kick-off

[Dave]

If only we had a Premier League finisher. I'm 100% convinced this conversation wouldn't be going on, not about yesterday's game anyway.

 

Suspect Rafa would say the same.

[Dokko]

If only we had a Premier League finisher. I'm 100% convinced this conversation wouldn't be going on, not about yesterday's game anyway.

 

Suspect Rafa would say the same.

 

Mitrovic managed 9 in 34. According to Rafalosophy that rate is worth £25m and therefore Premiership quality.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

If only we had a Premier League finisher. I'm 100% convinced this conversation wouldn't be going on, not about yesterday's game anyway.

 

Suspect Rafa would say the same.

 

True and that underlines everything really. Even if Gayle puts just one of those chances away I suspect we get a comfortable win. But again, given what we have, we have to accept the situation and I’m 100% certain had we continued playing the way we did in the first half, a goal or two would have came and we win comfortably. Premier League quality finisher or not.

[Heron]

If only we had a Premier League finisher. I'm 100% convinced this conversation wouldn't be going on, not about yesterday's game anyway.

 

Suspect Rafa would say the same.

 

Mitrovic managed 9 in 34. According to Rafalosophy that rate is worth £25m and therefore Premiership quality.

Not if 4 goals is worth 5million. Mitrovic would be worth 10. Which is what we paid (I think)

 

Yet... He doesn't get the same window of opportunity that Joselu gets... Rightly or wrongly

[Mistle17]

I used to have that thesis or document, it was a great read and Rafa is clearly a student of the game, but seems set in his ways these days and hasn’t really evolved.

From listening to former top players, I get the impression they are so focused, so machine like and so clinical when it comes to decision making, it’s easier for top players to do what Rafa wants than mediocre players who may want to do it and buy into it all, but just lack the switched on, focused, machine like mentality even if they have the ability. Shelvey struggles for example.

 

It does wear a player down eventually though and can burn them out. Mourinho is very similar.

 

Compare that to someone like Keegan who lets a player basically play to their strengths and encourages them to express themselves, to enjoy themselves and play with freedom.

 

What I do see when I watch us play is a solid shape off the ball, a well drilled side defensively. We ship goals because we lack quality really. Our ‘keepers are championship standard for example. Give Pardew this team and defensively we’d ship in a record number of goals week in week out.

 

It’s obvious if you give Rafa better players we will be a much better team and play much better. Forget exciting attacking football though, it’s not going to happen and flair players won’t feature in a Rafa team.

 

HTT, do you know where I could get my hands on that?

 

Cheers!

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I used to have that thesis or document, it was a great read and Rafa is clearly a student of the game, but seems set in his ways these days and hasn’t really evolved.

From listening to former top players, I get the impression they are so focused, so machine like and so clinical when it comes to decision making, it’s easier for top players to do what Rafa wants than mediocre players who may want to do it and buy into it all, but just lack the switched on, focused, machine like mentality even if they have the ability. Shelvey struggles for example.

 

It does wear a player down eventually though and can burn them out. Mourinho is very similar.

 

Compare that to someone like Keegan who lets a player basically play to their strengths and encourages them to express themselves, to enjoy themselves and play with freedom.

 

What I do see when I watch us play is a solid shape off the ball, a well drilled side defensively. We ship goals because we lack quality really. Our ‘keepers are championship standard for example. Give Pardew this team and defensively we’d ship in a record number of goals week in week out.

 

It’s obvious if you give Rafa better players we will be a much better team and play much better. Forget exciting attacking football though, it’s not going to happen and flair players won’t feature in a Rafa team.

 

HTT, do you know where I could get my hands on that?

 

Cheers!

 

I had it on my old laptop with lots of other docs from Cappello, Fergie, Sir Bobby and loads of others. Big Sam also did a few, very insightful as well but more about sports science, USA sports and such. Was a UEFA coaching thing I used to be signed up to. I’d love to re read it myself. I remember distinctly he emphasised the importance of possession. He was Valencia manager at the time IIRC or had just moved to Liverpool. This was before Pep and tiki-taka. Wonder what changed his phislopshy? Wonder if it’s our game? I do remember Valencia being very good at keeping possession and toying with teams, but a tad boring and with what I’d call nothing football.

[sh74]

This is a quote from a Valencia fan on another forum. 'Every one of his situations is different but he's naturally a defensive-minded manager.His first inclination,usually,is to set up a team to make them hard to break down and defensively very resolute.That can sometimes make for unappealing football and if your not getting results there's little for the fans to latch onto positively.'

[TRon]

I thought that last season some over ‘restricted’ defensive set-ups at home almost cost us the Championship title. This season I fear the same may cost us Premier League survival. If Rafa was playing pontoon, I reckon he would almost always stick rather than twist. Was always going to be this way, and whilst I would always opt for Keegan (or Robson) over Benetiz style wise (all have/had great values and are admirable men, in their own right) I am not even complaining. He is how he is. I do wish we would just really go for it at times, seek to put the opposition under as much pressure as possible; have more s*** or bust last 20 minutes. Surely we had a decent chance of beating these today with a Murphy (or Aarons) chucked on and ‘a rip them to bits’ instruction passed to the whole team.

 

Who the f*** are Murphy and Aarons? If they are the players you are hanging your hat on with a s*** or bust attitude, then I'm going to stick with the take a point approach tbh.

They are at present, along with Atsu, the best options we have for running at the opposition, putting them on the back foot and reclaiming the home advantage which I have seen unsettle even experienced internationals (e.g. can recall Beckham seeming to physically recoil from the wall of noise coming from the crowd, Barton then megged him, to add insult to injury). Playing safe is possibly the best bet, but fuck man we have to win games like yesterday if we are going to stay-up. 

 

Much though I like Murphy and Aarons, there's no way I could argue that playing them would have seen us scoring goals. We made enough chances without 'having a go', our problem was finishing.

[mrmojorisin75]

If only we had a Premier League finisher. I'm 100% convinced this conversation wouldn't be going on, not about yesterday's game anyway.

 

Suspect Rafa would say the same.

 

In a nutshell.