TheBrownBottle Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 (edited) The French police, UEFA and French govt are confirming it was mainly local ticketless people breaking through the barriers and causing bother: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61685718 I really do think we need to have a think before just pointing accusative fingers at Liverpool’s support generally. Of course they have shithouses in amongst them - so do we, so do most clubs of any reasonable size. I think it is almost guaranteed that if we got to a European final in a city with easy access and enough watering holes, there’d be more Geordies there without tickets than the ones with them - and a decent % of them would undoubtedly try to pay, cheat or burst their way in if the opportunity arose. Glass houses and all that. Edited June 3, 2022 by TheBrownBottle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 23 minutes ago, huss9 said: Martinez was a bizarre choice for Belgium coach. He has, essentially, failed. 100%. Never understood that one, they’re on the verge of wasting a golden generation of talent. I was deeply worried when we were linked with him before appointing Howe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 8 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said: 100%. Never understood that one, they’re on the verge of wasting a golden generation of talent. I was deeply worried when we were linked with him before appointing Howe Would people really call it wasting given that he took them to their best results in a World Cup ever and their best result in 30 years in the Euros? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 (edited) Yes, definitely. You can't guarantee success at tournaments, but the level of talent they have is obscene and he's a manager with no real track record of success in tournaments or anywhere for that matter. Edited June 4, 2022 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Flip said: Would people really call it wasting given that he took them to their best results in a World Cup ever and their best result in 30 years in the Euros? Their current squad is incomparable to previous ones. Belgium were always solid qualifiers but not much else - over the last five or six years they’ve been peppered with genuine world class talent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: Their current squad is incomparable to previous ones. Belgium were always solid qualifiers but not much else - over the last five or six years they’ve been peppered with genuine world class talent That’s true, but they finished third at the WC losing to the Champions in the semis and in the Euros the same. Think he’s done a decent job for them, but clearly should’ve gone different direction after the Euros. But his results for them have been good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 18 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: Yes, definitely. You can't guarantee success at tournaments, but the level of talent they have is obscene and he's a manager with no real track record of success in tournaments or anywhere for that matter. That's one of the weirdest arguments I've seen for suggesting someone is wasting talents. His past track record has nothing to do with his current track record with Belgium. Finishing third with Belgium was very successful, just ask the country and the parades they had welcoming them back. Won 25 and drew 3 out of 28 qualifier matches as well. Beating both Brazil and Portugal in the knock-out stages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Flip said: That's one of the weirdest arguments I've seen for suggesting someone is wasting talents. His past track record has nothing to do with his current track record with Belgium. Finishing third with Belgium was very successful, just ask the country and the parades they had welcoming them back. Won 25 and drew 3 out of 28 qualifier matches as well. Beating both Brazil and Portugal in the knock-out stages. His track record is exactly why you can look at that Belgium squad and then look at his achievements and make the case that they'd have achieved more with a better manager. I thought he was naïve at Wigan, and terrible at Everton. The improvement that he'd need to have made for me to not make that case is massive and I definitely don't think he's made the case for a counter argument with Belgium. At least not yet. Like I say, you can't guarantee success at tournaments, but there's no way you can look at a semi at the World Cup and a quarter final at the Euros with that squad and think of it as mission accomplished or successful. In the context of Belgium's history, definitely, but not in the context of the talent they have. Edited June 4, 2022 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Just now, Kid Icarus said: Like I say, you can't guarantee success at tournaments, but there's no way you can look at a semi at the World Cup and a quarter final at the Euros with that squad and think of it as mission accomplished or successful. In the context of Belgium's history, definitely, but not in the context of the talent they have. Of course you can suggest finishing third at the WC was considered successful. Doesn't mean that was mission acomplished though as I'd expect all top teams to want to win it all. But the matter of fact is more talented teams didn't go as far. Belgium is highly overrated when it comes to this ''golden'' generation. Their ''golden'' generation has actually in fact been two players at the absolute top De Bruyne and Hazard. Furthermore, at the last Euros only De Bruyne was really at the top. Eden has been half-dead for the past two years, and Lukaku has always been slightly overrated for what he actually is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Martinez has done well with Belgium. The team was basically on the decline from the World Cup onwards. They were really good at that World Cup and narrowly lost out to a marginally better team. The problem Belgium had is that when they were really in their prime they held onto Wilmots as manager for too long Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Got to bear in mind that the World Cup and Euro final tournaments consist mainly of knock-out rounds, if a team is going to go all the way to win. Luck is going to play a part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 He can have done a good job with them (on reflection) and still underachieved, see Sven with England… I’m so glad we never went with him mind, awful defensively and tactically clueless. I do wonder if Belgium’s relative recent success is more down to the fact of how good their squad has been and how many good players they’ve had rather than what he has brought to them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 26 minutes ago, Flip said: Of course you can suggest finishing third at the WC was considered successful. Doesn't mean that was mission acomplished though as I'd expect all top teams to want to win it all. But the matter of fact is more talented teams didn't go as far. Belgium is highly overrated when it comes to this ''golden'' generation. Their ''golden'' generation has actually in fact been two players at the absolute top De Bruyne and Hazard. Furthermore, at the last Euros only De Bruyne was really at the top. Eden has been half-dead for the past two years, and Lukaku has always been slightly overrated for what he actually is. I didn't say you couldn't? I just said I don't. Yeah, and worse teams have done better. Like I say, no guarantee at tournaments but I don't consider what Belgium have done as successful in the context of the talent they have. No point getting into a player by player analysis of whether they're a golden generation or not really, but I disagree that it's just De Bruyne and Hazard and think their squad would have done better with a manager better than Martinez, I don't even know how that's remotely controversial tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 He’d have probably won a World Cup but France were slightly better. They’ve failed at the Euros but no disgrace or surprise that the France team they lost to, beat them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said: I didn't say you couldn't? I just said I don't. Yeah, and worse teams have done better. Like I say, no guarantee at tournaments but I don't consider what Belgium have done as successful in the context of the talent they have. No point getting into a player by player analysis of whether they're a golden generation or not really, but I disagree that it's just De Bruyne and Hazard and think their squad would have done better with a manager better than Martinez, I don't even know how that's remotely controversial tbh. Fair enough. It's not controversial, the same it wouldn't be if a better manager didn't go as far. In knock-out stages there's an element of luck and momentum. Just look at France, no way Deschamps is a great manager like. My original point was that I felt saying he was wasting the talents when they've actually done well is harsh on him. I'm not his biggest fan like. Thought his Wigan side was fun as they tried to play football despite being terrible, but clearly he was shite for Everton and quite lucky to end up as Belgiums manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 The argument is simple really, a better manager will always do better with that level of squad or players. That said, he has done a decent job, more than decent. It’s been the best period in their history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Just now, HTT II said: The argument is simple really, a better manager will always do better with that level of squad or players. That said, he has done a decent job, more than decent. It’s been the best period in their history. I’m not sure many managers would have done any different at the last WC, though. They were up against peak Pogba & Kante, Griezmann was at his best around then, Mbappe was class…just beaten by better players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Just now, Optimistic Nut said: I’m not sure many managers would have done any different at the last WC, though. They were up against peak Pogba & Kante, Griezmann was at his best around then, Mbappe was class…just beaten by better players. That’s an argument too, more often than not even in tournament football the better team will win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubaricho Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Why is there so much random hate for Martinez amongst our fans? It’s weird, bordering on obsessive. And I don’t even remember why we’re supposed to hate him? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Citation needed tbh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 13 minutes ago, cubaricho said: Why is there so much random hate for Martinez amongst our fans? It’s weird, bordering on obsessive. And I don’t even remember why we’re supposed to hate him? Comments defending McManaman after the Haidara tackle (most managers back their player in those situations) and rolling over for Sunderland to help relegate us is all I can think of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 21 minutes ago, HTT II said: That’s an argument too, more often than not even in tournament football the better team will win. Think that was the situation with Sven and England. Aye, it was our golden generation but that Brazil team in 2002 was better, Portugal mid 2000s were class…a class/freak free-kick and a couple of pen shoot outs were the differences between the last 8 and probably winning at least one of those. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 40 minutes ago, cubaricho said: Why is there so much random hate for Martinez amongst our fans? It’s weird, bordering on obsessive. And I don’t even remember why we’re supposed to hate him? I don’t hate him, don’t really know anyone who does. Just think he’s a shite manager. Plenty of them out there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancing Brave Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Rep Of Ireland getting beat 1-0 off Brazil Armenia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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