England

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Jaqen said:

International football for the most part is fairly boring. The successful sides usually aren't playing great attacking football and blowing everyone away. It's kind of all about trying to create a system that gives you a solid platform that protects the weak areas of the side and hopefully allows your good attacking players to win you the game. 

 

Our central defense is obviously what we consider our weakness to be so generally setup with two holding players to try and minimise how much they get exposed. 

 

You get the squad for a week at time every few months, it's hard to implement anything too crazy with 11 players that don't play together normally. The Spain side that dominated had the advantage that most of them were all playing at Barca together in a very specific style, even then they were pretty boring and negative just hid it behind their possession. 

 

I get alot of the frustrations but I think people also have unfair expectations of what they think an international team should look like. 

I kind of agree but it’s certainly far from a rule. France weren’t by and large amazing to watch in 2018 even if very good and Portugal were awful in 2016 - safe to say they relied a lot on luck then. 
 

However, I wouldn’t say Argentina were boring in 2022. I know France pulled it back to make a stunning final, but they absolutely destroyed the champions that first half through positive and attacking football. I think it’s fair to say ‘on paper’ they weren’t the best squad and didn’t try to make up for their deficiencies through caution. Italy in 2021 were also (surprisingly) great to watch if I recall correctly and again I don’t think they had the best squad, but were definitely the best team in the tournament. Pretty sure if we’d swapped managers we’d have dominated that match and won in normal time. 
 

Southgate tries to compensate for defensive weaknesses with fewer attackers and likes to rely on players he ‘trusts’. It’s such a negative and frustrating tactic. Playing your best players doesn’t mean you should be gung ho and neglect defensive responsibilities. He also has plenty of time between tournaments to embed young and exciting or in-form players. Instead he’ll get to the tournament too reluctant to use Foden because he hasn’t allowed the team to be built around him, for example. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by St. Maximin

[TRon]

23 hours ago, ohmelads said:

On Maguire: different managers like different types of defenders. Bruce didn't see any place for Schar because he didn't fit how he likes to play (I'm not sure what that style was meant to be, but let's not go there). Howe came in and immediately saw Schar as a key first team player. 

 

I think Southgate believes that most teams win major international tournaments through being a strong defensive unit, even when they have had squads full of attacking talent (see how France were tactically last year, for example). When he first came in I recall comments that the FA had looked at past winners and concluded that winning with swashbuckling football and outplaying everyone is the exception rather than the rule. His philosophy very much seems to be that in order to beat the elite teams, we should be defensively tight with a dangerous counter punch. That explains him sticking with two defensive midfielders even against weaker opposition, because he wants us well drilled in that system for when the big games come. 

 

Maguire for all his flaws excels in the air and is less exposed when we sit deeper, which is how Southgate wants to line up against the best opposition. That probably explains why he's been better for England than Man U, because Man U play a higher line and expect defenders to be comfortable on the ball. 

 

I don't agree with Southgate's stance personally, but I think it's more than blind loyalty. I think he's a cynic and believes that our odds of winning are greater if we can keep it tight against the best teams. He was a penalty kick either side away from being proven right. But there is also a case to say that with the kind runs and circumstances he has had, and the quality at his disposal, he was too restrained and that a tight cagey game suited a slower but hugely experienced Italian side more than it did us at home with a team full of pace and 'fret'. 

 

The Henderson one I don't get. Maybe he can't find any other DMs and needs two in his XI. 

 

I think that's a fair stance to take for an inferior side, if you don't really believe you have the best players in the world. I always thought Rafa was a great manager for cup tournaments where you can sit back and hit superior teams on the counter, but in the league his defensive approach cost Liverpool against inferior sides who used the same tactic.

 

It's not the worst tactic tbf, but you do wonder if Southgate really believes England have the best players if he doesn't trust a plethora of attacking talent which most other international teams would be envious of.

[RobsonsWonderland]

1 hour ago, TRon said:

 

I think that's a fair stance to take for an inferior side, if you don't really believe you have the best players in the world. I always thought Rafa was a great manager for cup tournaments where you can sit back and hit superior teams on the counter, but in the league his defensive approach cost Liverpool against inferior sides who used the same tactic.

 

It's not the worst tactic tbf, but you do wonder if Southgate really believes England have the best players if he doesn't trust a plethora of attacking talent which most other international teams would be envious of.

Is he defensive because he doesn't trust his Cb's.

I mean we play with two Cdms to help cover them  so you are only left with 4 attacking players in the team.

 

And then mentions Foden can't play CM for his off the ball defensive work.

 

So in reality it's defence first 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by RobsonsWonderland

[The Prophet]

 

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

[gbandit]

Has the abuse been particularly worse than any other case? I’ve not paid a lot of attention and I hate toxic social media so I can imagine it’s worse online than before but in real life is it worse? Can’t imagine it is 

[The College Dropout]

It's not excusable from fans but I blame Southgate. He's put the lad in the firing line.

[KaKa]

Really terrible idea from his mother. Just made things even worse for him, and far more humiliating.

[Tsunami]

Got the idea from that Spanish blokes mother. She’ll be going on hunger strike next.

 

Seriously, Social Media is toxic, I’ve no idea why anyone uses it. Fortunately for Maguire he’s earning a ton of money and has the last laugh. It’s the vulnerable people that I fear for. It scares the shit out of me for what it can do. I’m told my daughter was bullied at school, she’s never mentioned it and we can’t broach the subject and it could extend to Social Media for all we know. I guess she’s just trying to be a protective mother.

 

Hope he’s had a word with her mind when she’s telling him his next bedtime story.

[Jaqen]

2 hours ago, gbandit said:

Has the abuse been particularly worse than any other case? I’ve not paid a lot of attention and I hate toxic social media so I can imagine it’s worse online than before but in real life is it worse? Can’t imagine it is 

 

To me it seems he's just became a meme/figure of ridicule rather than outright abuse? I think when you reach the stage he has where opposition fans cheer when they hear your name read out on the lineup or you are subbed on etc it's probably way more hurtful and humiliating than anything else.

 

Even the way he lost the captaincy at Man United where McTominay was made captain in a friendly match ahead of him recently or they kept him out of the squad to have an extra sub keeper on the bench is really embarrassing for him. Ten Hag and Man United couldn't make it any clearer they wanted him gone and yet he's chose to sit on the bench there rather than playing every week for West Ham in a side that actually suits his game. I think that's why a lot of people will struggle to have too much sympathy for him. 

 

His mam releasing a statement isn't going to help things at all either mind, not sure what she's thinking there Blaming pundits and the media for abuse too? I can't remember any examples of that at all, just honest criticism of generally poor performances and a load of high profile errors. 

[KaKa]

I mean the abuse is terrible and people should really be better than that, but unfortunately it's part and parcel of the gig and everyone knows it going in.

 

They are all very well compensated for what they do and can always walk away if they don't want to put with it, and so it's just one of those things really.

[joeyt]

Why's Pope not getting called up anymore?

 

Even second choice Ramsdale is ahead of him

[andycap]

Probably has to do with his distribution. 

[Troll]

Other than Bellingham and Rice, that midfield is stinking.  You can't say any of the rest of them deserve to be in on form.  

[Paully]

Longstaff should be in ahead of Philips and Gordon should be in too

[GeordieDazzler]

Jordan Henderson

[McCormick]

Gallagher over JWP is ridiculous.

[SUPERTOON]

Selfishly glad our lads will get a rest 

[McCormick]

Henderson at least provides leadership and big-game nous; so can understand his inclusion to an extent. We’ve seen how much having good characters and leaders in your group (whether playing or not) can positively affect performances.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by McCormick

[pubteam]

5 minutes ago, GeordieDazzler said:

Jordan Henderson

Appears to be the first name on the list, I'm sure Southgate wants some of the Saudi money.

[Holmesy]

Southgate’s ridiculous selections will ultimately be his England legacy. He’s never going to win anything so he’ll be remembered for bottling a final and continually picking players who didn’t warrant a place, while leaving out bags of talent. I don’t even care about England that much but I cannot wait for him to go. 

[RobsonsWonderland]

I just wish Southgate would go away...

Yes I know we have done this and that under him but this is getting silly now.

 

Philips struggled in the cup game, yet gets picked over JwP who is on a hot streak of form

[Theregulars]

He's been pretty consistent at saying he's got his group and will stick by them. I understand what he's doing, I think it just feels so weird because we watch the premier league so see players in and out of form. I do think there is something in the argument that some players perform better for country over club (set up, less pressure etc) and seem to be able to switch it back on (I don't think Maguire is too bad for England, I've not watched Phillips play enough for England to know).

 

The downsides for me are the argument vs incentive - surely players need to see that consistent good form will at least get them a competitive 10-20 mins from the bench? - and the fact that players aren't playing enough football to be in any sort of rhythm / form, or aren't playing any competitive football. The professional game is now one of such fine margins that any lapse in concentration or rust can cost you a tournament. 

 

I like Southgate and back him to continue, and it might just be a case of "you can't have both", but I think there's room for a mix of loyalty and rewarding performance. I'd set up an international squad as, e.g. "here are my 16 established, I keep the other 7 open for form" and you have whatever mechanism for switching between the two as time / circumstance require. Sometimes I wonder whether he just feels desperately sorry for Maguire and wants to help him out, which I can get behind.

 

 

[Kanji]

I think his entire appraoch is honking at this moment. His "group" aren't the same as they were a few years ago, and that's OK, pick new players who have earned it. 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Kanji

[Dokko]

Southgate should call up Howe and be shown how it's done. 

 

Fucking useless gormless knacker.