The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Thiago]

3 hours ago, veriaqa said:

 

This is why the notion of Saudi's sportwashing is a ridiculous notion. They dont care about sportwasing. What they do really care is, in the word of Bill Cosby, "money money money money..." and more "money money money money"

 

But as I said a few posts back, the level of hypocrisy of you brits and americans are on another level you will never grasp that.

Where are you from?

[Awaymag]

Who gives a fuck.........really?

[wormy]

 What the fuck is going on in here.

[The Prophet]

Great to see that absolutely shit takes aren't confined to social media.

[TRon]

The exodus from British football of Russian investors in the space of a few weeks does show how things can change pretty quickly. Yesterday Abramovic and Usmanov were valued investors underwriting their clubs, now they are on the run. It's got to have big repercussions for their clubs.

 

Also how come Abramovic is so happy to write off £1.5bn which is owed to him by Chelsea? It makes me wonder how hard he worked for that money in the first place, most accounts give the suggestion that he probably came across it through links with the Russian govt anyway.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by TRon

[TheHoob]

10 hours ago, triggs said:

Owning a football club doesn't make you money

 

They're doing a pretty good job of sportswashing considering anytime they are criticised Newcastle Utd fans have a meltdown about it

 

To be fair if Abramovic gets his 3bn I believe he'd be making a fairly tidy profit. Remember reading that it City sold up they'd be quids in as well, as mental as both sound. 

[TRon]

20 minutes ago, TheHoob said:

 

To be fair if Abramovic gets his 3bn I believe he'd be making a fairly tidy profit. Remember reading that it City sold up they'd be quids in as well, as mental as both sound. 

 

Is that accounting for the money which City have ploughed in outside of the football club across the city as well? And the £1.5billion loan Abramovic is writing off?

 

 

[triggs]

46 minutes ago, TheHoob said:

 

To be fair if Abramovic gets his 3bn I believe he'd be making a fairly tidy profit. Remember reading that it City sold up they'd be quids in as well, as mental as both sound. 

Abramovic is only selling because he's being forced to sell though 

[Jackie Broon]

Happy oil day to our Saudi overlords, 84 years today since oil was first struck in Saudi Arabia.

[jdckelly]

7 hours ago, TRon said:

The exodus from British football of Russian investors in the space of a few weeks does show how things can change pretty quickly. Yesterday Abramovic and Usmanov were valued investors underwriting their clubs, now they are on the run. It's got to have big repercussions for their clubs.

 

Also how come Abramovic is so happy to write off £1.5bn which is owed to him by Chelsea? It makes me wonder how hard he worked for that money in the first place, most accounts give the suggestion that he probably came across it through links with the Russian govt anyway.

 

 

 

by all accounts he was influential enough with the russian government in the 90's to recommend Putin as the successor to Yeltsin 

[TomYam]

32 minutes ago, jdckelly said:

by all accounts he was influential enough with the russian government in the 90's to recommend Putin as the successor to Yeltsin 

 

It seems to me that Abramovich has led a charmed life since aiding Putler in his quest for power. He's had a free hand to do as he liked, greased Tory palms, lived the life of Riley.

[Wullie]

8 hours ago, TRon said:

The exodus from British football of Russian investors in the space of a few weeks does show how things can change pretty quickly. Yesterday Abramovic and Usmanov were valued investors underwriting their clubs, now they are on the run. It's got to have big repercussions for their clubs.

 

Also how come Abramovic is so happy to write off £1.5bn which is owed to him by Chelsea? It makes me wonder how hard he worked for that money in the first place, most accounts give the suggestion that he probably came across it through links with the Russian govt anyway.

 

 

It's not much of a secret how he made his money, he's an oligarch, the clue's in the name. He got his money through the corrupt buy-up of the USSR's old state assets (namely what is now Gazprom) for a pittance. 

[Dr Venkman]

Neoliberalism, ladies and gents.

[Palestoon]

Not sure how familiar people are with the politics of Saudi Arabia, but I dont think most realize that buying NUFC and the other major PIF investments are not solely for the purpose of "Sportswashing" and covering for their atrocities. Most of the gulf arab states are coming to the realization that the Oil money will run out, and they need to find a more sustainable way to hold up their economy. 

 

This is where the major investments you are seeing are coming from. On top of the foreign investment, huge amounts are being poured into the countries infrastructure to try and create a tourism economy. They know that in order to do that, they need to scale back some of their more regressive policies in order to make the country more palatable to western visitors. You can see the result of that with changes in women driving laws, relaxing their visa requirements, and hosting major sports/entertainment events. Last year they held the biggest rave in history, something that was unimaginable 10 years ago. This opening to the west will also introduce the Saudi population towards "western progressive values" which will inevitably lead to internal pressure for change.

 

Obviously, none of this excuses the countless human rights abuses. I can tell you as a practicing Muslim, 95 percent of the Muslim community find the Saudi Monarchy detestable. My point basically, is that the idea that Saudi Arabia bought NUFC so they could commit abuses under the shadow of a Newcastle cup run to be a bit ridiculous. From a western perspective, more interaction in business/culture/politics with the Saudi state can only be viewed in a positive light long term. I'm sure we would all like the Saudi's to wake up tomorrow, see the ills of their ways and adopt a better way forward. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way, and these things take time.

 

Compare that to the other option of ostracizing and punishing them for not seeing the "light" of western values. That usually creates the opposite effect. You only have to see what a hermit nation like North Korea looks like when they are isolated and not exposed to the rest of the world. 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Palestoon

[Tiresias]

I mean i do get that there is more to it than sportwashing etc, but the idea that owning NUFC will lead to progressive values in Saudi Arabia feels a bit far fetched to me. 

[Palestoon]

3 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

I mean i do get that there is more to it than sportwashing etc, but the idea that owning NUFC will lead to progressive values in Saudi Arabia feels a bit far fetched to me. 

 

Directly, no I agree. Nor was my post meant to Diminish the views held by those who are uncomfortable with a state such as Saudi Arabia owning their football club. I think thats a valid and honorable position.

 

My broarder point was that Newcastle are a small ripple in a wave of change coming to Saudi Arabia, that will inevitably, even if not intentionally force them to modernize in order to maintain their standing in the world. And the alternative to that, which is isolating them, talking down to them, or even potentially attacking them will probably just entrench them deeper in their current mindset.

I'm not saying this is the morally correct answer, and we should all be celebrating our Saudi overlords, but again, I doubt they're thinking if Newcastle win the champions league, the rest of the world will no longer care if a homosexual is thrown off a roof.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Palestoon

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Palestoon said:

Not sure how familiar people are with the politics of Saudi Arabia, but I dont think most realize that buying NUFC and the other major PIF investments are not solely for the purpose of "Sportswashing" and covering for their atrocities. Most of the gulf arab states are coming to the realization that the Oil money will run out, and they need to find a more sustainable way to hold up their economy. 

 

This is where the major investments you are seeing are coming from. On top of the foreign investment, huge amounts are being poured into the countries infrastructure to try and create a tourism economy. They know that in order to do that, they need to scale back some of their more regressive policies in order to make the country more palatable to western visitors. You can see the result of that with changes in women driving laws, relaxing their visa requirements, and hosting major sports/entertainment events. Last year they held the biggest rave in history, something that was unimaginable 10 years ago. This opening to the west will also introduce the Saudi population towards "western progressive values" which will inevitably lead to internal pressure for change.

 

Obviously, none of this excuses the countless human rights abuses. I can tell you as a practicing Muslim, 95 percent of the Muslim community find the Saudi Monarchy detestable. My point basically, is that the idea that Saudi Arabia bought NUFC so they could commit abuses under the shadow of a Newcastle cup run to be a bit ridiculous. From a western perspective, more interaction in business/culture/politics with the Saudi state can only be viewed in a positive light long term. I'm sure we would all like the Saudi's to wake up tomorrow, see the ills of their ways and adopt a better way forward. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way, and these things take time.

 

Compare that to the other option of ostracizing and punishing them for not seeing the "light" of western values. That usually creates the opposite effect. You only have to see what a hermit nation like North Korea looks like when they are isolated and not exposed to the rest of the world. 

 

 

 

Good points, articulated much better than I could!
 

I guess it’s a complex issue but to me the main benefit of improving a reputation is economic, so I’m a bit surprised it’s seen as a human rights issue.
 

The human rights issues are sadly there regardless - I almost think groups like AI talk about ‘sportswashing’ to make their concerns seem more relevant. The abuses are the problem here, not the attempt to change a reputation. I don’t think it’s logical to assume these states are making a calculated attempt to hide their atrocities while pleasing westerners, or that it would really have the desired effect if so. 
 

Saying that, the more angry I feel about Russia due to its current widely broadcasted atrocities, the less comfortable I feel about Saudi Arabia. Not due to sportswashing; just simply being associated with my team…

[veriaqa]

2 hours ago, Tiresias said:

I mean i do get that there is more to it than sportwashing etc, but the idea that owning NUFC will lead to progressive values in Saudi Arabia feels a bit far fetched to me. 

 

Actually I agree with you on this. I doubt owning NUFC will change Saudi's value.

[huss9]

On 03/03/2022 at 23:01, veriaqa said:

 

Actually I agree with you on this. I doubt owning NUFC will change Saudi's value.

there;s been rapid changes already over the past couple of years - they are desperate to diversify the economy and bring in tourists.

need to have lived in SA or at least be in communication with locals to appreciate it.

still massive abuses mind, but small steps etc.

 

i bet MBS really regerts the Khashoggi murder now. however much they relax some of their laws - that is always going to hang over him. he really fucked up there. probabaly too arrogant and thought it wouldnt come out.

[madras]

On 03/03/2022 at 23:01, veriaqa said:

 

Actually I agree with you on this. I doubt owning NUFC will change Saudi's value.

Do you think it's possible that a push to be more open in order to diversify its economy, you now see lots of tourism ads for example, to create a more outward looking face of which NUFC is just a small part, could fetch about these changes all be it incrementally ?

[TRon]

Amanada Staveley should really be more careful what she says, Jonathan Northcroft writing in the Times has used that quote to have a go at her and the club's links to Saudi Arabia. She needs to take a leaf out of Eddie's playbook and straight bat every question she isn't forced to answer. It's not NUFC's fault that the PL has always took the money. Chelsea won what, 19 trophies under the Russian? 

[Abacus]

It's difficult, because unlike Howe, it was a question she'd struggle to avoid as easily as his role is clearer.

 

After all, she's a part of our ownership consortium and so a part of the PL now, also part of the decision making process about any new ownership rules.

 

So when questions of ownership come up, she can't exactly ignore it, or straight-bat it away with the same easy logic. Although, she really should have - hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

She can't directly condemn the ownership of a fellow club either - what other PL club owner has done so? Ultimately, it was always down to the PL to comment, because her own personal opinions don't actually matter on this. 

 

A straightforward - "things are moving rapidly and I don't want to comment on other clubs or what might happen" would have been more sensible. A full time CEO would probably have spotted that trap she was walking into. It may be a lesson that she and Mehrdad can't do everything themselves.

 

[Froggy]

Saudi Arabia beheaded 81 people today.

[Dr.Spaceman]

4 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Saudi Arabia beheaded 81 people today.

 

What exactly are you hoping to achieve by posting that?

[CPL]

It's on the headlines on BBC so it's bound to promote discussion on the board about the ownership, which is what this forum is about.